Puppy mounting drives

[Waldo2]

Would it be indelicate of me to ask about Puppy mounting drives? For a Linux newcomer drive mounting is not an arousing task. Curiously it is not consistent - I can run an audio CD or DVD from Gxine by simply selecting the format from the Gxine menu, and no need to manually unmount.

If Puppy is running with an HD Pup001 file I can also automatically access anything in that partition since Puppy has already mounted it. But if I want to access another HD drive or partition or data CD / DVD I must use Barry's nice script.

If my machine has 2+ HDDs or more than 2 or 3 partitions I must (shudder) t*p* a t*rm*n*l command. I could then also create a startup file I think, but If I run Puppy on another machine I'll be starting again from scratch.

Some modest (I hope) suggestions for improvement:

1. Mount all detected fixed drives at startup. I see that some versions of Knoppix and others do this, but I don't know if there are related issues.
2. (or) Enhance the "Mount / unmount drives" script with a mount all fixed drives option, plus detection of a higher number of drives and partitions (as shown in the /mnt folder).
3. Provide a Rox right-click setting to mount a drive - The Rox icons in the /mnt folder currently show the mounted status of the drive and can be dragged to the desktop. There is also currently a Rox right-click command to unmount a drive, but not a mount command.
4. Other methods better than the above.

Maybe this is a topic for a poll: "Should Puppy mount every unguarded drive in sight?"

[Lobster]

I have never understood the whole mounting thing. It seems some sort of the network is bigger than the individual Unix hangover.

Most users of Puppy are intending to use use their drives. So it would seem mounting ON is the option unless there is some good reason not to - and those who prefer not to can unmount.

If someone can explain some reason why this is not the case I would be pleased to hear it. My first impression of Linux - not allowing me to open MY CD or insisting on passwords (that thankfully Puppy does not request)

What am I missing (and gladly so) here?

[Pizzasgood]

Well, the passwords part is because it is a multi-user system. Windows is mainly a single user system. On Win98, for example, I can set up a password, but I can still access my stuff from another account through C:\windows\profiles\Jeremy or something like that (I haven't had to do it in a bit). With Linux, I can keep everyone else out of my stuff. It adds privacy, and it keeps the random idiot who comes by from messing up anything.

[Flash]

I'll have to second the confusion. I don't understand why anything the OS detects and recognizes isn't available without an additional operation which is cryptically - and suggestively - called "mounting." Why is it necessary? Is it just a way to control access, or is there some operational reason for it that never occurred to Microsoft?

[babbs]

Microsoft focused on ease of use in a stand alone environment, not security in a network or multiuser environment... Linux focused on security in a multiuser environment from the start.

[Jesse]

Mounting is the user politely asking the Kernel to connect a device into the filesystem at a mount point.
Once a device is mounted, it gets all the nice features that the kernel provides to anything connected in this manner, like disk memory cache, delayed writes etc...
Unmounting clears all those caches etc and makes sure that all the information has been written to disk.

On windows when you unplug your usb drive, windows would unmount the disk before saying it is OK to unplug. Windows hides the concept of mount/unmount from the user.

[Flash]

OK, it makes sense that devices might need to be prepared before disconnecting them from the network or machine. But why can't a device be automatically mounted when it is connected to the machine or network and the OS detects it and recognizes it? Is it only to allow the operator the extra control of specifying the mount point?

Why don't I have to mount the DVD drive to play a DVD with Gxine in Puppy? Does starting Gxine mount the DVD player too? This is what I mean by confusion.

[Jesse]

I think the "Kudzu" (not in puppy) program does the automounting of new hardware at boot time, but I think you need a special application to scan for new disks if you want to plug them in after boot.
Your DVD player accesses the device directly, without need for kernel assistance, so it doesn't get mounted. Think of mounting as a nice way to synchronize read and write file access between multiple processes to prevent data corruption, necessary for a hard disk but no so much for a DVD. As a DVD is read only, the player is not going to corrupt any data even if there are multiple players running, so if it can handle the accessing the device directly, there isn't any need to mount it. It saves on overheads.

[Lobster]

On a network, in a multiuser system, connecting and disconnecting to a device makes sense.

Desktop uses - it is just an anachronism they do not require or understand. My philosophy is connect me to everything - my printer, the internet, my max resolution, sound, my available drives etc. Then ask me if I want to disconnect/unmount - m m m . . . (as if)

Do not tell me what Linux is doing - tell me what it should be doing. No wait a minute I just did that . . .

It is not rocket surgery - it is common user sense. Ease of use is difficult to implement - but easier to use [anyone need more clues?]



I think I might be ranting again . . . time for the red pill . . .

[Pizzasgood]

If you add something like this:

Code: Select all

#Add /dev/hda1 to /etc/fstab so it can be mounted.
echo >> /etc/fstab "/dev/hda1     /mnt/msdos1  vfat     defaults               0 0"

#Mount /dev/hda1 to msdos1.
mount /dev/hda1

to /etc/rc.d/local it will mount hda1 for you when it boots. You can modify this to boot any other harddrives/partitions that need to be mounted. Then you just have to mess with removeable media, for which mounting makes sense. Otherwise you'd need a program running in the background that scanns for unmounted media every couple seconds. That would eat up resources that other things could be using.


If /etc/fstab wouldn't reload every time, you could add the

Code: Select all

/dev/hda1     /mnt/msdos1  vfat     defaults               0 0

to it and that would automount it in the conventional way, but that would only work with Puppy if you edited the fstab in image.

[BarryK]

Why don't I have to mount the DVD drive to play a DVD with Gxine in Puppy? Does starting Gxine mount the DVD player too? This is what I mean by confusion.

Heh heh, yes, that also confused me about 4 years ago when I first started to use Linux.
It is something that probably needs to be clarified better.

probably a simple explanation is that whenever you want to access a partition "as a filesystem", then you must mount it. (just to upset that explanation, MToolFM can access files on a msdos or vfat partition without mounting, there are also tools for doing th same with ext2/3).
Just playing a DVD video or listening to an audio CD does not constitute accessing it as a filesystem.
...that is proably still a muddy explanation.

[Flash]

Why don't I have to mount the DVD drive to play a DVD with Gxine in Puppy? Does starting Gxine mount the DVD player too? This is what I mean by confusion.

Heh heh, yes, that also confused me about 4 years ago when I first started to use Linux.
It is something that probably needs to be clarified better.

probably a simple explanation is that whenever you want to access a partition "as a filesystem", then you must mount it. (just to upset that explanation, MToolFM can access files on a msdos or vfat partition without mounting, there are also tools for doing th same with ext2/3).
Just playing a DVD video or listening to an audio CD does not constitute accessing it as a filesystem.
...that is proably still a muddy explanation.

Well, it might have cleared things up a bit. So "mounting" is really all about file systems and the ability of the OS to keep track of where it put things? That makes sense as a place to start. It explains why an application like Gxine can operate without mounting: it operates outside the filesystem.

[Jesse]

Another way to look at it is, mounting is the only logical way for multiple programs to write to files on the same device without having concurrency issues of multiple programs trying to store their file in the same location at the same time, and thus corrupting the data or file system records.
If you only read data from a device like audio cd or dvd movie, there is no concurrency issue where data could be lost or corrupted, so you do not need the intermediary facilitator of the kernel filesystem.
Hope that helps.
Jesse

[Lobster]

An end user describes what they perceive and what they want. I want to be able to access and remove a cd

I want to save on any media I have connected.

It is like someone explaining why disks have to be formatted - who cares. If I save on a floppy, the program saves, disk not formatted?
OK a message comes up saying "This is the first time data has been stored on this disk - it is being prepared for your computer and will take 2 mins OK"?

"Your disk is being prepared and your data saved - in the future this will be quicker because the disk has been prepared - OK?"

You then get a timer countdown. Eh hello - what is formatting for - even having to be mentioned for - not required.

Mounting is not relevant to the end user. It reminds me of a network manager explaining why a printer was not working to an end user. It did not have enough memory (of course he threw in amounts in KB that meant nothing) and the end user meeklyaccepted this drivel.

So put memory in it. Tell me when you have fixed it.

All files/devices connected -if two programs try to access the same mounting - then you can say something

Otherwise keep it all ready for me to use

Who is being unreasonable here? I hope it is me.

[babbs]

In FC3, when I insert a CD or a USB drive, once its recognized, an icon shows up on the desktop already mounted. When I want to eject the CD, I right click on the icon and select "Eject". When I want to remove the USB drive, I right click on the icon and select "Unmount Voulume".

I'm thinking that this is a new function built into the 2.6 kernel (I'm probably TOOTA here, but I'm sure I read something like that). It would be nice to see this worked into Puppy somehow.

[Flash]

Thank you all for your attempts to enlighten me re the mounting thing. I think I have a better idea what it is all about now. I agree with Lobster though; (if I understand its use correctly) there is no obvious reason why mounting shouldn't be transparent to the user in most instances.

[Pizzasgood]

The main problem is that as far as I know, putting in a cd doesn't make the thing say, "Hey, Linux! There's a cd in. You can mount me now!" It just goes in, and doesn't announce itself unless Linux comes by and says, "Knock knock, anybody home?"

Now, something I noticed in ZipSlack, is that in Rox, if you click on a mountpoint, it asks you if you want to mount the drive (or maybe it just does, I don't remember). When you leave, it definately asks if you want to unmount it. I think that is a very nice way of doing it, because you don't have to have any background processes. If Puppy could run a modified version of the mount/unmount wizzard at startup and just automatically mount any detected harddrives, but leave the cds and other removeable media unmounted, then have Rox mount it when you use it, then unmount when you stop, that would work.

I don't see any reason why it shouldn't pop up a message saying that it's mounting the cd though. I'd actually prefer it, because then I'd know why it's taking so long. It's not like knowing that it's mounting a drive is detrimental to using the os. If it just popped up a small dialog box saying "Mounting /dev/hdc...." for a couple seconds that outomaticlly closes when it's done, that doesn't do any harm. The same with the formatting example. Plus, then if you're someday forced to use something that isn't as self maintaining as Windows, you'll have a better idea of what to do. Instead of being ignorant and wondering why you're getting a blank directory when you click /mnt/cdrom, you'll wonder why it didn't mount, thus making the problem easier to solve and your life easier.

[Flash]

The impression I get from this forum thread so far seems to be that while the art of mounting may be necessary and even useful to Linux, the why, when and how of it are not always obvious to even experienced users.

I like Pizza's suggestion of automounting, when a CD is inserted for instance, but one problem with that is that when I push the eject button on my CD and nothing happens because the CD needs to be unmounted before it can be ejected, I don't know what to do next and the back of my neck instantly begins to heat up. (Handy for cold climates, but not in Arizona.)

If everything can be done, as in Windows, without going through the extra step of mounting and unmounting first, then why do it? If on the other hand mounting is a powerful tool which allows the control to do things not easily done in Windows, then, rather than just put up with it, or work around it, or try to hide it behind automation, the need for mounting needs to be prominently and clearly explained in Puppy so that beginners can understand why and when it is necessary, and how to do it.

I hope the end result of this forum thread is a brief explanation of mounting that is comprehensive enough, yet simple and clear enough, that beginners need know no more to put Puppy through its tricks.

[Pizzasgood]

when I push the eject button on my CD and nothing happens because the CD needs to be unmounted

The first time that happened to me I almost freaked out because I thought my cd drive had broken again.... However, that situation wouldn't happen in the Rox method (used correctly), because when you leave /mnt/cdrom, it popps up a message asking if you want to unmount. If it was set up so it just did it, you'd only have problems if you try switching cd's while you're in the directory (shouldn't be doing that anyway...) or if you exit the directory without it detecting you (I don't know if it checks when you close the window. That's something that should be done, though).

That still doesn't work when you want to browse to it in an application, though. Like if I wanted to load a file in leafpad. I usually just go there in Rox, though, so it doesn't bother me much.

[wscarl]

Like Windows, Xandros Hides the Mount/unmount from the user- The Evolution line is: Dedian-Corel Linux-Corel Linux SE- Corel Linux 3 (unreleased) - ( software leased to Lindows (by Xandros) Lindows 0.9-4.9 to Linspire 5.0 {MS endless lawsuit's forced Name Change- Note Lindows won US lawsuit's- so MS sued in
europe without notice-to win by defualt and contuied to sue until they got a judgement with $150,000 per day fine- as long as any one in the county can access the Lindows website! ) Xandros 1.0 - Xandros 1.1-Xandros2.0
Xandros 2.5 - Xandros 3.0 (Latest)