Which Linux to use untill Puppy is ready?

[Mr Doolie]

Think I'll open up a can of worms.

It's time to move away from The Dark Side and put Winblows away except for the things that only Windork can do; like my games.

Puppy doesn't seem to be quite ready yet as a home-base type serious use it for everything don't need Winslows any more OS, no offense, Barry. The Pup is growing fast and when he's mature he'll blow the others away but right now...well...he's a puppy and not a big bad dog yet.

Maybe 2.0 will change all that. It sure looks like it.

I see Puppy like a kick-ass house that is being built and it's really neat but you can't get standard parts for it yet. Where should I live in the meantime? Mandrake? Ubuntu? Debian? Which one would be easier to move from into Puppy?

OK, the worm can is open. Start throwing rocks.

[klhrevolutionist]

Well, depends on what you are wanting?

A desktop that iscomplete & you can easily build upon to your liking.
I would suggest STX linux http://www.stibs.cc/stx/
or pocketlinux http://gnulinux.de/pocketlinux/
or slax http://slax.linux-live.org/

If you want a sytem that you can more easily download packages & hope they work
You might try mepis http://distrowatch.com/mepis

If you want the both of them combined you might try
kubuntu http://www.kubuntu.org/
Ark http://www.arklinux.org

If you want a good commercial product
xandros http://www.xandros.com/
Linspire http://www.linspire.com/

[Artie]

I've tried lots of Linux distributions and ended up with PCLinuxOS at http://pclinuxos.com which is by far the most reliable and easy to use distribution I've come across. I got sick and tired of trying to sort out dependencies. PCLinuxOS has its own repositories independent of Debian, and although there are fewer programs there's everything you need and you won't end up in dependency hell. I update every morning and have yet to screw up my system. And if there is a program you just got to have go to their forums and order it. In my mind, PCLinuxOS is the Linux equivalent of Winblows XP.

[costal martignier]

in my "linuxlife" i checked many distributions

but debian was allways my favorit, but it's a little bit too conservative..
but now i have the debian based ubuntu, with my favorit desktop gnome and i have no problems anymore, no more fiddling no more workarrounding no more problems, it just works

i migrated my whole family and all friends (using linux) to ubuntu...

i love it really

everything totaly IMHO

regards
costal

[Nathan F]

Puppy really is ready in most regards. 'Nuff said.

Nathan

[EarlSmith]

I have a little different take on this subject. I have several different needs because I run a business on my computer both at home and on the road with a laptop.
At home I need to run Quickbooks for my business so I use Windows 3.11 and Quickbooks 5.0, which are both older software. 3.11 boots very fast and I can use other dos programs .
I also use Puppy for Internet work and email. Puppy is quick to boot and run from a HD installation.
I also have a separate partition for all my documents. Makes it much easier to backup.
The latest Mepis version is installed just because I sometimes want more that Puppy can offer in variety of software, such as games, Also when I download large programs to burn on cds, Mepis does a better job for me since I want to keep Puppy small and fast.
I also have a fifth partition just to play with new linux installations.
I think with this setup, another important thing is to know how to use Grub. Learn how to edit the Grub files so you always remain in control of your partitions and installations.
My point is I use the things that do the jobs I need.

[Pizzasgood]

Puppy doesn't seem to be quite ready yet as a home-base type serious use it for everything don't need Winslows any more OS, no offense, Barry. The Pup is growing fast and when he's mature he'll blow the others away but right now...well...he's a puppy and not a big bad dog yet.

Maybe 2.0 will change all that. It sure looks like it.

I see Puppy like a kick-ass house that is being built and it's really neat but you can't get standard parts for it yet. Where should I live in the meantime? Mandrake? Ubuntu? Debian? Which one would be easier to move from into Puppy?

It depends on what you want to do. For example, I already use Puppy as my "home-base type serious use it for everything don't need Winslows any more OS" but I also don't use any of those fancy/stupid office apps (other than a word processor). I can count the number of powerpoints I've made in my life on one hand, and that was mainly due to my being in a "businessy" type class. (I'm not exactly sure which class it was. It was supposed to be "Intro to Tech II" but I think it was sort of a combo between that and "Business Procedures" or something)
Puppy does have programs to handle most of those tasks, though I've never used them.

On the other hand, if you're idea of a home-base distro is one that runs a webserver, home media server, and garage door opener, well, then Puppy isn't quite ready yet.

Also, keep in mind I'm not knocking spreadsheets or anything (I really like spreadsheets). I just think the whole "Office" craze is overrated. I refuse to buy into anything just because it has the word "Office," has eight programs that do things that could be done in three, and has no efficiency whatsoever. How hard is it to process words anyway? I've never understood how a word processor could become bloated.


So, ignoring my somewhat extreme view of what Puppy can't do, what is it that you find missing?

[muggins]

i was in a course once & offered a free linux cd to some bloke, one of the main distros but can't recollect which one, & he responded with "it's not a professional operating system!"

i asked him if he was a rocket scientist needing an OS for his next moon shot.

what do most people use computers for? they play games, surf the net, email, write a few job apps, download stuff, & not much else.

one of the most annoying things is lack of recognition of your hardware/peripherals. i've tried heaps of different linuxes & puppy stands out as the best. it does 100% of what i need to do.

i still keep an eye on dsl to see what they're up to.

my question for people for whom puppy isn't their main OS is what's missing?

[Lobster]

my question for people for whom puppy isn't their main OS is what's missing?

You buy a computer it has an OS
you use it

If the computer boots up from a Puppy CD or a key drive
you use it

[Pizzasgood]

"it's not a professional operating system!"

That's because if you don't pay money, and it doesn't crash every day, it isn't professional.

Besides, everyone knows the "professionals" are never as good as those who do it for fun.

[EarlSmith]

Looking at the post here, I think you can see that every person has different needs and uses for computers. In my experience, no one program or operating system can fill every need or want.

fancy/stupid office apps (other than a word processor). I can count the number of powerpoints I've made in my life on one hand,

As you can see here , Pizzasgood and I have some different needs and wants.

How hard is it to process words anyway? I've never understood how a word processor could become bloated.

Again we have different needs. Doesn't mean we can't use the same operating system for some of the same things, only that we may have other needs. There are many things that I use OpenOffice for that Abiword can't do.

For some of us Puppy will never do everything, if it did it would destroy what Puppy is.... fast to boot, fast to run, and does most things well...but never all things well.

[vern72023]

Puppy doesn't seem to be quite ready yet as a home-base type serious use it for everything don't need Winslows any more OS, no offense, Barry. The Pup is growing fast and when he's mature he'll blow the others away but right now...well...he's a puppy and not a big bad dog yet.

I use it for web-browsing, mail,finances, presentations, technical documentation, spreadsheets, remotely accessing and controlling W2k and W2k3 servers worldwide, and writing and fixing coding, security and networking issues on these .

Since I am employed as a senior network engineer by a major corporation that pays me very well for my understanding of and expertise with MS server products I can't agree that it is time to get rid of the "darkside"., but equally it is not yet time to get rid of UNIX or Mainframes either both of which statements I have also heard in the 22 years I have been involved with computing.

I have no issues with MS products except for their size, and really don't think deriding their contribution to computing is either fair or knowledgeable. Say what you like they opened up computing to a lot more users than Apple, or IBM or SUN or .... name your OS could ever have done or even wanted to.Without MS most of the people who deride them would not even know what a PC was.

I can do all of the things I mentioned off of a 1GB Fat32 usb drive, of which 160MB is Puppy OS, and which I can carry easily, boot on anything that has a USB, or access the data on the Fat32 from any windows OS. There is no way I could do that with either a bigname linux system or any windows product and I have tried to for at least 3 years now.

Puppy is the best of breed just from my own experience with Knoppix, Slax, Debian, DSL, Ubuntu and a lot of others that reallly do not need mentioning. I consider it to be exactly what I am looking for in a personal system - and I think of myself as a serious user and also a very exacting one.

[Lobster]

I have no issues with MS products except for their size, and really don't think deriding their contribution to computing is either fair or knowledgeable. Say what you like they opened up computing to a lot more users than Apple, or IBM or SUN or .... name your OS could ever have done or even wanted to.Without MS most of the people who deride them would not even know what a PC was.

You're right. It just is traditional for penguins to deride Gates and MS. I spent most of my cyber time using MS products. At the moment Google is on the up nd up riding on the hot air of a google gaggle of geese. When it breaks MS, as it most likely will, a new evil empire target will be born.
MS know how to get their product to market.
Penguins go to Alaska with a better fridge [shrug]

So what's the plan?

[Guest]

At the moment Google is on the up nd up riding on the hot air of a google gaggle of geese. When it breaks MS, as it most likely will, a new evil empire target will be born.
MS know how to get their product to market.
Penguins go to Alaska with a better fridge [shrug]

So what's the plan?

speaking of google:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/01/31 ... top_linux/

and you guys might wanna think twice before using google (even if you are not searching for anything that might be considered illegal \immoral...like Lobster searching for porn sites.................for educational use ofcource )
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 24,00.html
if you must use google use http://www.scroogle.org

to get back to the subject i know it was posted here somewhere but let me ask it again anyway:
what those 700mb or even more (big dogs)linux distro has that puppy doesn't have or can't do?
IMHO puppy been\is running with the big dogs from its earliest versions and you know what i like about it the most?
it an independent distro .

[muggins]

lobster posted:

You buy a computer it has an OS
you use it

yeah! but what about when the balance shifts & it's the operating system, spyware, malware etc using you? Down here in antipodes there was a very funny sketch where this bloke was dressed as a paperclip, running around an office causing mayhem, by continually jumping in front of people saying "Can I help you?".

i originally had windows ME, didn't like it so reverted to 98, which i much preferred. then i disrupted it somehow, lost my install disk, & here i am.

my sister's XP machine was chock full of various malware so i persuaded her to let me wipe everything & install puppy. the only thing she misses from windowsworld are various games.

regarding microsoft in commercial use, i was installing high speed data links in an office once & asked the network bloke what his boxes were running on.
he said he had 3 'nix boxes that he had to look at once a year & one windows box that fell over monthly. he opined that "gates should be boiled in oil!".

i remarked that if all the servers were more robust he probably wouldn't have a job.

also i wish i'd kept a copy of the local rag,in about '98/99 when they had an article on page 2, or 3, going on about the latest windows release, then on page 5 they had an interview with the head of sun saying gates should be in jail for selling a defective product!

(as a snide aside, is windows multitasking yet?).

[muggins]

oops! double post.

[Mr Doolie]

> webserver, home media server, and garage door opener
> , well, then Puppy isn't quite ready yet

Exactly my point and again I state to the group and especially Barry *I AM NOT BASHING PUPPY AT ALL! OK? I love Puppy. He's in my dual-boot system and I use him every day. He does the simple basic stuff I need. Sadly though I have to go back to Winfart for the other 95% of what I like to do.

>what is it that you find missing?

What I find missing (and I know this is only for the time being) is compatabilty with the Linux world. At this date and as far as Version 1.07 goes Puppy is a loner. <--- I said "L-O-N-E-R" not "loser". Don't somebody jump on me <grin> Barry is working on the situation. It's only temporary.

Let's take a generic example. A utility called "Super Duper". You go to the website and see the Mandrake version, the Red Hat version and the generic Linux version. Download the generic .tar.bz and try to install it. No good. It requires 18 standard library files and other stuff that won't yet work with Puppy.

Real examples? How about GNOME and that Gynach Expanded or whatever the expanded voice/webcam version is called.

I know soon Puppy WILL be compatable with the entire Linux world but he's not yet. "Yet" is the operative work so I just wanted to know what Linux was good enough until I can go 100% Puppy. Version 2 is looking good and maybe by version 2.5 Puppy can push the others aside.

Oh, I think I've been as clear as I can. I love Puppy and I support Puppy and I use Puppy but he's not all powerful yet.

----------------------------------------------------

Why I still need Winslows:

Sims 2, Grand Theft Auto San Andreas, PIrates, Flight Simulator 2004, (ALL my really cool games!) Front Page Web Editor, Yahoo Messenger with voice, Google Earth, TRS-80 Emulater, Amiga Emulator, C64 Emulator, Sega Emulator, N64 Emulator and a whole bunch of stuff.

Yeah I know, mostly games but Yahoo, Google Earth and the emulators should all have Linux versions. Are there any Linux web editors as good as Front Page? Those are the reason I can't dump Winblows yet. So my system is dual-boot Win2000/Puppy. I might add another Linux too when I figure out which one. Right now I'm playing with 6 of them in my virtual machine(s); Ubuntu, Mandriva, Debian, PCLinuxOS, Knoppix and the "Sacrificial Puppy" that I screw around with before I modify my real Puppy. Yay for the virtual machine!

A FYI for Barry. Under VMWare's virtual machine xorg won't work. All you get is a black screen. Any idea why? No big deal. I'm guessing that the simulated graphics card is too limited. I don't really care since xorg works fine on my real graphics card (NVidia GForce 4). Just curious.

[GuestToo]

What I find missing ... is compatabilty with the Linux world ... Barry is working on the situation. It's only temporary

Puppy is small and light and fast ... it runs completely in ram

it is small because many programs and libraries have been left out ... and some of the standard programs have been replaced by Busybox

the ONLY possible way to have the same support and functionality as a more complete distro is to include all the same libraries and programs ... which would make Puppy as large and as bloated and as slow

i do not see Puppy achieving "compatabilty with the Linux world" in the near future, because i think that such a goal is not just unrealistic, but completely IMPOSSIBLE

for example, Autopackage does not work with Puppy because

1) it requires bash ... Puppy now (only recently) has bash, but 1.0.7's /bin/sh is still Busybox's ash, not bash, which will not work with Autopackage

2) if /bin/sh is replaced with bash, Autopackage still does not work, because many of the gnu-utility programs are Busybox replacements, and do not have the same functionality

3) if the Busybox replacements for the gnu-utilities were replaced with the full versions of the programs, Autopackage still would not work because many of the libraries and programs that are included in more complete distros (like perl and python, for example) are missing from Puppy

4) if all of these programs and libraries were to be added to Puppy, many Autopackages still would not work, because Puppy is not a Debian clone or a Red Hat clone etc etc, and has, for example, simpler boot scripts

yes, all of the above things could be addressed ... but all this would do is to turn Puppy into a Debian clone or a Red Hat clone or a Mandriva clone or even a Linux-From-Scratch clone ... it would NOT BE Puppy anymore ... frankly, i think people who would like to turn Puppy into another Linux clone would be happier if they simply installed one of the other 400 Linux distros that already exist, and that already do everything they seem to want and that have everything they seem to want
http://distrowatch.com/

for those who seem to think a complex package manager with dependency resolution like apt-get or slapt-get or urpmi would be a simple solution, i think that idea is a bit naive and simplistic ... i would think that many of the prebuilt packages in another distro's repository will not work with Puppy, unless Puppy was turned into an exact clone of the distro ... the best that could be hoped for, would be that installing a package would automatically download the 200 to 300 megs or so of dependencies and install them without asking a lot of difficult configuration questions that many advanced users could not answer properly, much less a newbie, and hopefully not completely break the operating system in the process

in any case, i think a complex package management system (even if it were to be added to Puppy and eventually the number of bugs were to be reduced to an acceptable level) would require a complete set of packages to be created specifically for Puppy, and a repository system would have to be built and maintained

i think this would be a tremendous amount of work ... perhaps orders of magnitude greater than all of the efforts that have been applied to Puppy so far

i suspect that just maintaining a repository would be a great deal of work ... just vetting packages would be a lot of work

and then there is the issue of security ... dotpup packages, as i have said before, ARE potentially dangerous ... they ARE potential security risks ... but so are pupget packages and so are debs and rpms and Autopackage packages and Klix too
http://wiki.debian.org/SecureApt

personally, i do not think Puppy is for everyone ... for that matter, i don't think Linux is for everyone either

[Lobster]

personally, i do not think Puppy is for everyone ... for that matter, i don't think Linux is for everyone either

Some good points as always from G2

One way is to have the best of all worlds
Here is an apple Mac case I used, placed an Intel motherboard inside and am just about to boot up a penguin powered CD
http://tmxxine.com/wiki/LinuxTmxxine

Bigger distros have more security, more packages included. We do not include Gimp, Audacity and Inkscape - these are great add ons for Puppy (are they all in Grafpup?) but we do not have them as "standard"

Puppy is different and in many ways better than many of the "rearrangments" that pass as distros. Most just use a different set of packages and window manager and pretend to be a distro (sorry penguins). They really seem to be determined to make a rounder wheel by painting it different colours.

Many bigger distros do have built in support for CUPS printing and every programming language you might need and so on. So they start with more. Most of us do not need that more. So they look good and cover more eventualities. At a price.

I prefer small, fast and working. Gaim works. Abiword works. Beaver works. Mozilla works. I like works. I like works fast. I like starts fast. I like close down fast. I like simple. Easy.

Our firewall is the best ever - to set up. Mtpaint (getting a bit complex to use but it works and Mark is going to simplify soon). It is not just that programs work but the support works. The wiki works. Barry works.

An OS that just works? That'll be the Puppy!

Within two days we will have a Puppy 2 Alpha
- I bet that works too . . . even though it is an Alpha. You Pups - so lucky!

[Mr Doolie]

Ok, final comments. I guess being such a Linux Noobee I didn't understand the situation.

> i do not see Puppy achieving "compatabilty with the Linux world"

I thought (functionally) Linux was Linux was Linux. The difference being what window manager and other stuff you added to the basic kernal.
Mandriva, Ubuntu, Red Hat or Puppy the same linux program should work on all four, no? Well some do (Pingus, Firefox, RealPlayer) but not others (like VMWare Tools). Why?

>for that matter, i don't think Linux is for everyone either

It's loads better than Winblows. Shoot, eating lint is better than using Winslows.

Actually Puppy is very cool as-is. Puppy rocks. He's going to be my portable USB drive system and my laptop OS (when I get one).

After re-reading your response I see that you are 100% correct and I was thinking wrongly. If Puppy did all that he'd be just another Mandriva clone and not be the cute fast cool lovable Puppy any more. Puppy is unique and I wanted to change him [kicks self in family jewels].

Sorry, Barry and others. Please forgive a noobee.
I was wrong. I apologise. I'm a dork.