Does puppy write to NTFS system disk without asking?[Solved]

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#21 Post by **Flash** » Thu 06 Jan 2011, 02:55

My guess is that most people using Puppy for the first time have no idea what a swap partition or file is. If Puppy asked them about it during bootup, they would freak out and possibly flood the forum with questions. Rather than have to calm each of them individually and explain what swap memory is and why they needed it, perhaps Barry just figured it would be better for everyone if Puppy just went ahead and created a swap file if Puppy couldn't find at least 256 MB of RAM. As far as I know, Puppy automatically creating a swap file never caused any problem - except for the number of people who became alarmed that Puppy was creating a swap file on their HDD without asking.

#22 Post by **BÃ©Ã¨m** » Thu 06 Jan 2011, 19:31

I can indeed imagine that that's the reasoning behind Barry's decision I am sure somewhere on his blog he did write about it.

However I still have seen recently postings of people with low ram (<256MB) who didn't have a swap file/partition created automatically.

carolus · #23 Post by **carolus** » Thu 06 Jan 2011, 22:37

Barry has been on both sides of this fence in the past and so must have given it some thought.

All three of my computers, from different manufacturers, have OEM Windows installed not on the first partition, but on the second. The first partition contains stuff from the manufacturer. On the two laptops, the hidden partition includes a backup of the originally installed software, activated by a key combination that wipes the hard drive and reinstalls the factory configuration including all the crapware. On my 8-year old Dell desktop, which came with a full set of backup software on CD's, I have no idea what is in Dell's hidden partition or whether it is necessary or useful.

What happens if linux software tries to write to one of those drives and chooses the first partition?

#24 Post by **BÃ©Ã¨m** » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 14:06

On the different PC's I got, the first partition always contained the Windows installation in ntfs. The second partition (vfat) contained the necessary files to restore to the factory install.

You have very funny factory installed systems.

carolus · #25 Post by **carolus** » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 16:30

Beem wrote:

"You have very funny factory installed systems."

If so, it is all the more reason not to want anything monkeying with the system disk without permission.

On two of these computers I am currently booting puppy with grub4dos configured to boot from the second partition. Dell, Sony, and Asus have all reserved and hidden the first partition. Using grub4dos allowed me to add Puppy to the boot menu without touching my system disk with anything but Windows.

#26 Post by **BÃ©Ã¨m** » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 18:59

I still don't understand your setup.
You have already monkeyed yourself by installing grub4dos.
You say it is configured to boot from partition 2 which contains the Windows install.
Where is puppy then?

carolus · #27 Post by **carolus** » Fri 07 Jan 2011, 22:19

Béèm wrote:I still don't understand your setup.
You have already monkeyed yourself by installing grub4dos.
You say it is configured to boot from partition 2 which contains the Windows install.
Where is puppy then?

As described in:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 3861#13861

I had to modify the sample menu.lst to refer to the second partition rather than the first.

Puppy is on a USB flash drive. The Windows bootloader chains to grub4dos which then loads vmlinuz and initrd. (Neither of my older computers can boot directly from USB.) All operations on the NTFS system disk were performed using Windows software (i.e., file copying and editing boot.ini).

#28 Post by **BÃ©Ã¨m** » Sat 08 Jan 2011, 00:12

In the post you reference Windows is at the first partition not the second.

In any case, your question is answered.
You know now that puppy in certain circumstances writes without asking.

carolus · #29 Post by **carolus** » Sat 08 Jan 2011, 16:15

Béèm wrote:In the post you reference Windows is at the first partition not the second.

Yes, so I had to change that. I've noticed elsewhere (maybe unetbootin) that Windows was assumed to be on the first partition. But that is not true for my 3 machines from different manufacturers.

In any case, your question is answered.
You know now that puppy in certain circumstances writes without asking.

Yes. I've marked the thread "solved." Thanks to you and to linuxsansdisquedur for showing me where to find the relevant code.

I only hope that linuxsansdisquedur is not sans his disque dur because his puppy had an accident.

#30 Post by **BÃ©Ã¨m** » Sat 08 Jan 2011, 17:05

I have learned also something about the automatic creation of a swa file/partition.
Hope you get along further with Puppy.

Ans as said, you can always PM Barry Kauler. He s not a bad guy.

ICPUG · #31 Post by **ICPUG** » Mon 10 Jan 2011, 13:00

Just thought I'd add some info about Windows and which partition it is on.

When Windows XP is installed as an OEM it it usually installed on the first partition. My laptop of a few years ago had its recovery files on a FAT partition on the 3rd partition (of 3), which was not hidden.

It seems, more recently, that manufacturers have taken to putting recovery files on a hidden partition 1, making the Windows partition partition 2. This happened with my sister's PC. I wonder if Microsoft introduced this with one of the XP service packs. It is hard to understand why manufacturers would implement this weird process but very easy to understand why Microsoft would introduce it to obfuscate things and make it difficult for other OS to coexist with it.

Windows 7 standard install process creates a hidden partition 1, which is used when you need the recovery console. This means you don't need an install CD if you have only borked your Windows partition and not the hard disk. Windows 7 is installed on partition 2. It is possible, but difficult, to get round this problem but you have to know at install time and my local PC shop certainly made no effort to avoid it. So Windows 7 takes away 2 (of the 4 possible) primary partitions for its own use. Anyone would think Windows owns the hard disk!

This means that, in future, systems like Carolus has are more likely to be the norm than the exception.

#32 Post by **BÃ©Ã¨m** » Mon 10 Jan 2011, 15:42

ICPUG wrote:This means that, in future, systems like Carolus has are more likely to be the norm than the exception.

Thanks, didn't know this. I kept stuck several years ago with XP.
Good to know.

carolus · #33 Post by **carolus** » Mon 10 Jan 2011, 20:09

Béèm wrote:
ICPUG wrote:This means that, in future, systems like Carolus has are more likely to be the norm than the exception.
Thanks, didn't know this. I kept stuck several years ago with XP.
Good to know.

This is hardly a new phenomenon. My 2003 Dell desktop and 2006 Sony laptop both have OEM Windows XP on the second partition, with the first partition hidden and reserved for the manufacturer.

#34 Post by **BÃ©Ã¨m** » Mon 10 Jan 2011, 21:09

My 3 1/2 year old desktop had windows on the 1e partition and the recovery one fat one as ICPUG describes.

My laptop is the same, tho older.

Other PC's I have seen were the same also.

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Does puppy write to NTFS system disk without asking?[Solved]