Building custom pups for my use

[kimble]

Hi, I'm new here and want to try and get some basic information on building Linux from the bottom up.
Firstly, my initial probe into the Puppy maze:

https://sourceforge.net/p/lxpup/discuss ... 2dc4ee69d/
I have been using Ubuntu since Lucid (10-04), with Puppy-5.2.7 to rescue me, mostly with GRUB4DOS when I stuff up my boot process.
My preferred setup is Ubuntu Server + xorg +LXDE, but I see bloat everywhere, because of Canonical's decision that it must work "out of the box" and do everything for everyone.

I have just started with LxPup-Bionic and I'm trying to understand how it is so small.
1. It only has a root user, which is OK by me,
2. It doesn't have "apt" or "dpkg", which probably saves a lot in /var/cache/apt/archives/ but I wonder how limiting that might turn out to be.
3. It uses squashfs
4. It doesn't seem to have a policy-kit (never really knew what that was all about)
5. It doesn't have "Customise Look and Feel" to switch to a modified theme, (I am so used to a bright YELLOW title bar on the Active Window, I can't manage without it. Black is terrible.)
6. LxPup has saved its .sfs files in my Ubuntu's root folder, so how do I ensure I can boot into Ubuntu?

I could go on, but it is probably time for someone who knows what they talking about to explain.

to which Pea Bee kindly responded:

LxPup-Bionic is small because it is a version of Puppy Linux built with the Woof-CE Puppy builder.
It is also small because it does not come with development tools (these are in a separate devx) and has small simple apps for such things as word processing, spreadsheets and web browsers.
Package management is based on .pets and the Puppy Package Manager (PPM) which has access to the Ubuntu repositories.
It has "Change appearance" to change look and feel.
This is not the best place for discussion - there is a LxPup thread on the Puppy Linux forum.
The forum has lots of help on dual booting Puppy Linux with other OS's.

I have since tried LxPup64.
I should say my system consist of 3 PCs, all 64-bit machines, 2 of them are amd64 and one arm64. All are fanless, low wattage and can run off a car battery.
I have a number of arm devices, all somewhat under-powered, with the best of them being the Rock64-4GB (US$44.95) by Pine64 https://www.pine64.org/?page_id=7147 , using Armbian OS based on Ubuntu Server. The additional complexity of using these tiny ARM boards can wait till later.

I currently think of OSes in terms of Debian packages, hence my "what hasn't it got" questions.
My next step is to get Woof-CE and build something, preferably 64-bit and as bloat-free as possible (1 language, 1 theme, 1 keyboard layout, etc).
Unfortunately this board has 74 pages of threads (2213 topics) going back to 2007, which is overwhelming.
Fat-free sounds promising, although latest update is 2013 and www.ttuuxxx.com is not found.

NOTE: registering for Puppy Linux Forum involves sending a password on an unsecure connection, and getting an email in return with the password in clear text !

[peebee]

Welcome

You will need to have the devx installed to use woof-ce - and if you want to build a 64-bit pup you will need to be running a 64-bit pup.

You also need an internet connection with plenty of bandwidth, a fast storage device formatted as a Linux file system with plenty of free space and plenty of time and patience.

Instructions
If you want to try a build:

Code: Select all

git clone https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE.git -b testing 
cd woof-CE 
./merge2out 
cd ../woof-out* 

./0setup 
./1download 
./2createpackages 
./3builddistro-Z

You may also want to visit:
Auto-build a Puppy iso; single script with optional gui

for a tool that automates the process.

[mikeslr]

I don't build puppies from scratch, but can provide some background to help you better understand what going on.

Woof is an application which builds Puppies using the binaries of various version of major distros. That results in Puppies which are "binary compatible" -- can access the repositories of the major distro whose binaries were used, and install (or download for creation of Squashfiles to be loaded or unloaded without installing). Compatibility is not identity. And Puppies Package Manager is not apt-get or synaptic. With recent Puppies, occasionally you'll have to figure out what libraries weren't obtained: List Dynamic Dependencies does that except for python modules. Then obtain the missing components and add them. Older Puppies (other than Slackos) usually require a more extensive hunt for missing pieces.

Puppies are named with reference to the version of the major distro whose binaries were used: Slackos --Slackware; dpup or debian --debian; and 'Ubuntu' Puppies from, for examples, Lucid Lynx, Trusty Tahr, Xenial Xerus, Bionic Beaver resulting in Lucid/Lupu, Tahrpup, Xenialpup and Bionicpup and Upupbb. Each Puppy and its derivatives (remasters) have their own threads on the Forum. But the following customized google-search engine should help you find specific information: https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=015995643 ... #gsc.tab=0

You should also take a few minutes to examine the structure of this Forum. Consider it a Table of Contents into the World of Puppy. It organizes the discussions into Sections and Subsections so that each version of Puppy, and to a large extent, each concern and each problem has its own thread within a logically named Section*.

When you mention Lucid, you are referring to a Puppy whose Ubuntu 'parent' reached End of Life in 2012, and whose Puppy maintainer, rerwin, concluded last year that further efforts in trying to keep it up-to-date [secure and able to use current web-browsers] could no longer be justified. So its may be best to concentrate your efforts on Tahrpup, Xenialpup [both of which are still viable] or BionicPup64 which is based on a version Ubuntu, IIRC, has said it will maintain for 10 years.

Slackware gives numbers to its variations. Currently, 13.37, 14.0, 14.1 and 14.2 are still maintained. Usually the first post of a Slacko thread will tell you which version it is based on. Debian names its versions. Jessie and Stretch come to mind. Again look to the first post of a Puppies thread. Its date and name should provide clues.

The outlier of this system is FatDog. Currently, I think FatDogs are created using woof after creating binaries using a program known as "Linux From Scratch". Google it. FatDogs are the only Puppies which, as far as I know, will run on the ARM architecture.

FatDog is, and has been in active development and maintenance since 2013. You'll find the latest version here: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 29#1010229

Woof can be used to build either debian or 'unbuntu' Puppies. And as you probably know, Ubuntu to a large extent begins as a re-working of debian. But if you want a 'Pure' debian system, you may want to consider the 'Debian Dogs'. These maintain threads on this Forum. They are not 'woof-built' Puppies; rather they are created using Debian-Live in such a way as to emulate how Puppies function and to maintain the small size and resource usage of Puppies.

If a Pure debian system is your objective, look in general for threads in the Projects Section. In particular you may be interested in either of these: A Debian-Stretch-Live Starter Kit, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 654#983654 and Create Debian 9 (Stretch) minimal ISO similar to DebianDog, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 752#962752

* In an effort to keep things organized so that new users, like yourself, and those of us who try to answer questions can find what already has been posted, it is frequently suggested that the post of a new user is in the wrong Section. Your post, for example, should have been in the 'Users (For the Regulars)' Section. That's where general inquiries, beyond the needs of Beginners (Beginner's Help) and technical (non-programming) issues are discussed. The 'How To" Section is for providing instructions and tips (not asking questions). "Bugs" is for reporting them; although posting to a specific Puppy's thread is usually just as acceptable. "Additional Software" is primarily for those applications a Dev has not included; but specific threads of applications will frequently advise which Puppy has it builtin. "Cutting Edge" is for Projects of any nature which are not, as yet, sufficiently mature to be generally used, although as development progresses and those interested in the project provide feed-back they may become so. "Hardware" concentrates on specific Hardware, rather than the Puppies or applications which use them. "Security" and "Programming" house those discussions you would expect from their names. The names "Projects" and "Derivatives" predate Barry Kauler's creation of Woof. Originally, only Barry Kauler created Puppies. "Projects" were where his creations and other projects were discussed. Early on, Puppies included modules for remastering Barry's creations -- including applications he didn't, excluding some he did, changing the Window Manager or providing a different File-Manager. The Remastered Puppies were discussed in the Derivatives Section. After Barry created Woof, however, anyone could use it to create a Puppy. These generally show up in the Project Section while Remasters of these show up in the Derivatives Section. But it's really now a matter of choice by the Dev creating a Puppy. When possible, a specific problem or inquiry relating to a specific Puppy actively maintained should be posted to that Puppy's Thread. FYI, to post to a Thread, click the Reply button.. Clicking the "New Topic" button starts a NEW Thread in the Section in which a discussion is located, not in the Thread of that discussion.

At the bottom of any page you'll notice that the Forum Software is now over 13 years old and holds over 1 million posts. It doesn't appear possible to update it. We all have to live with its limitations.

[step]

Just to add and clarify: current Fatdog64 doesn't descend from woof. It's based on Linux From Scratch, which is a method to build Linux, not a distro, complemented with Beyond Linux From Scratch, which also is a method and not a distro. Fatdog64 has its own build system, and all packages are self-compiled. The package format is txz like slackware's (_like_ not _from_).

[kimble]

Thanks for those replies.
Please move the thread to wherever is most appropriate.

I am particularly interested in knowing what Ubuntu "features" (read bloat) are NOT in a Puppy build, and the implications of the decisions to leave them out.

I am a single user here, and I rarely write and test code these days, and when I do, I can always do it in a jail. "Access Denied" is an annoyance for me, not a saving grace of Linux. Mostly I'm running apps from the Ubuntu repository, hence running as root is not dangerous for me, so single user is OK. and Ubuntu's "user-admin" can go. What the benefits in RAM-space and time are, I don't know.

I only work in English, so I don't care about locales and updates for libreoffice's Assurian language translations are an annoying waste of time.

I don't care about themes, so long as I can edit the one I'm using. The same goes for icons and fonts and wallpapers. All bloat.

There are very few apps I am familiar with that have pets and many have dependency problems. Is it much work to create them?

I have had a go at woof-CE, I downloaded the devx-lxpup64...sfs (but I didn't install it), and woof-out/1downloads failed "not found or corrupt" on a lot of files. Still working on that, but it does seem like there could be a faster way of doing things.

[6502coder]

Since you are already familiar with "Ubuntu Server + xorg + LXDE" why not take a look at LXLE, which is a slimmed-down respin of Lubuntu. By comparing LXLE to a stock Ubuntu it should be easy to see what has been cut out. Granted that LXLE is not as small as a Puppy, it is still far less bloated than stock Ubuntu, and a lot of what "bloat" remains can be attributed to stuff like LibreOffice and GIMP.

[mikeslr]

Before I forget to mention it, a devx_PUPPY-VERSION.sfs is not installed. Puppies are designed to function as Frugal installs, employing a 'merge-file-system' which reads files from SFSes in storage into RAM and merges them there, with some SFSes having priority over others as to whose files will remain in RAM.

Typically, the ISO of recent Puppies will contain an initrd (initial RAM Disk) which creates a space in RAM and has instructions as to what to read from the other components into RAM. It will also have a kernel/vmlinuz (sort of the operating systems drive-train) and a zdrv.sfs holding drivers compiled against, and thus usable with, that vmlinuz. Sometimes firmware is also included in the zdrv.sfs, but as firmware can be used with any vmlinuz, sometimes it's packaged separately as an fdrv.sfs. All Linux Distros contain these packages, and currently they take up about 50 Mbs of storage space. Two of the things which make recent Puppies different is that (a) its kernel/vmlinuz also contains modules enabling the 'merge-in-RAM-filesystem'; and because these components are packaged separately it is easy to swap in a new vmlinuz & zdrv (and if necessary an fdrv) for the old.

The remaining component in a Puppy ISO is the puppy_version_number.sfs. This contains all the applications: (a) those which a user employs to do stuff such as write, compile, change Wallpaper --user applications; and those which connect user applications with the kernel/vmlinuz and the drivers and firmware: the infra-structure.

Recent Ubuntu ISO occupy at least 1200 Mbs of storage. Subtracting out the initrd, vmlinuz and drivers and hardware, means their applications and 'infra-structure' needs at least 1000 Mbs of storage.

Typically, a recent Puppy_version_number.sfs uses 350 Mbs of storage or less. In part, this difference results for the use of smaller applications such as Abiword and gnumeric (about 60 Mbs) vs. LibreOffice (about 180 Mbs). And in part, the difference results from Puppy's preference for JWM as window-manager and Rox as File-Manager rather than gnome or mate or kde or other 'you're to dumb to know what you're doing' window and file-managers. Still, both Lubuntu-Xenial and LxXenialpup used the same file and windows managers: the first required about 800 Mbs of Storage Space, while the Puppy required less than 300. Therefore, most of the difference must be attributed to 'infra-structure'.

[kimble]

Some extra thoughts.

My lxpup64 has 5,292 files in /usr/share/icons/ taking up 12.7 MB of disk space. That includes 5 different sizes of gnome-joystick.svg and I don't even have a joystick! I suspect I DO have more remnants of Gnome.

I also seem to have 27 themes to choose from.

I have 14 sound files in /usr/share/sounds/ including the familar bark.au and 2barks.au . login.wav and join.wav are the same, an american voice saying "lover" or something. I dare say I can just delete them, but they should never have been put in there in the first place without permission.

Installation of apps doesn't seem all that hard - copy the binary to /usr/share/bin/ , create a .desktop file with Exec=/usr/share/bin/app.name , and put it in /usr/share/applications/. lxpanel will take it from there to create all the launchers. Decompressing and checking signatures and dependencies is fairly straightforward. Ubuntu's apt seems to make a meal of this with all its options and caches. Writing a Puppy/apt wouldn't take long, ( I volunteer somebody else to do the work. )

I rarely use the man pages and would be quite happy looking them up on the web. Same with documentation.

I don't have any printers, so I don't need CUPSd or any printer drivers.

You don't need a screensaver, although blanking the screen and locking it is OK. It's a bit hard locking it if you can log in as root without a password.

I don't have anyone looking over my shoulder trying to steal my passwords off the screen, so I don't need password fields "blobbed out" - it only makes things harder when authentication fails.

I have never used LVM or RAID and that should be catered for as a valid choice.

@6502coder, I had a look at LXLE yesterday - it is "light on resources" but the download is 1.4 GB and it is based on 16.04 so only 3 years out of date.
@mikeslr, I don't like ANY of Lubuntu's distro apps and usually install with the --no-recommends option to leave them out and delete abiword and gnumeric straight away. I have thought in the past of a "Naked Ubuntu" with no apps (OK, with a graphical terminal only).

[dancytron]

I think you are more likely to be successful if you do it with remastering.

Use the "remove-builtin-programs" command to remove the browser, abiword and gnumeric. Then remaster. Then use gdmaps or similar to look and see what else to remove. And so on until you have removed most of the stuff you don't want.

[mikeslr]

Puppy Package Manager used to have an option to automatically strip-out man and doc files before installation. Don't know what became of it. However, since doc and man files are placed in specified folders, /usr/share/doc & .../man, removing them is easy.

Part of the problem with multiple identical icons and their minor variations is that creators of applications don't know what icons other creators of applications used, or where they located them. Stripping out icons is easy, especially if you don't care about how pretty a GUI is. But you may find sometimes that if the icon called by the argument in /usr/share/applications/xxx.desktop is missing, so will be the expected menu-listing.

Most icons are located in /usr/share/icons, /usr/share/pixmaps/, with those relating to themes in folders under /usr/local/lib/X11. But, there are outliers. Someone who isn't concerned about themes, how pretty GUIs look, is ambitious and knows how to code --I fall into none of those categories-- can probably write a short program to identify which icons are called by /usr/share/applications desktops, copy those to a location, automatically modify desktops to look for icons there and remove all others.

gnumeric actually has as good, perhaps better reputation, than other spreadsheets. Abiword, as a wordprocessor, not so much. For a good, light-weight combination, I recommend gnumeric and focuswriter. I have no suggestions regarding a presentations program. As for a cut-down version of LibreOffice, its not worth the effort: the bulk of Libreoffice is its core --its modules drawing upon specific parts of that core. As far as I know, the core can't be stripped without breaking it, and the parts relating to modules you don't need are relatively small.

But before you get carried away removing unwanted parts of a stock Puppy, keep in mind that you will be devoting a great deal of time for very little gain. On bootup* a Puppy does not load all the files relating to applications into RAM. Removing about 50 Mbs of applications from the Puppy_version_###.sfs results in about 8 Mbs more RAM available (not then being used) on bootup. And remove builtins doesn't actually remove them, only whites-out the link to them*. A remaster is necessary to actually remove them, as during a remaster links are followed unless a white-out is found. Currently, I recommend nic007's remaster suite: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 89#1001289

Also remember that a Frugal Puppy is designed to use SFSes. An unloaded SFS requires no RAM. In addition to Puppy's Remove builtins, there are two applications you should know about. The first is gnewpet, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 673#598673 which will quickly create a pet of an installed application. The other is PaDS, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 922#998922 which will quickly create an SFS from any number of pets or other application packages, including .debs, tar.gzs, and txzs.

Although use of a swapfile or partition can benefit RAM-challenged computers, that results in a decease in responsiveness as accessing the hard-drive space being substituted is multiple times slower than accessing RAM (and USB2-drives about 10 to 15 times slower than hard-drive). Implementing zram, if possible, may be a far more efficient use of your time and your computer's resources. See, for example, http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 202#981202.

And if it's just that having unnecessary and distracting listings of unused applications on your menu which concern you, see which version of Menu>Setup>Menu Manager Edit the Menu your Puppy uses. Version 6.1's middle panel displayed green and red buttons which were toggles. Clicking a green button turned it to red (and vice-versa). What this did was to write, or remove, the argument "No Display=true" (or false) into the application's /usr/share/applications/xxx.desktop. Clicking OK then updated the Menu. Version 6.2 uses a separate panel to provide this option.

If your Puppy lacks radky's Menu Manager, you can manually accomplish the same by adding the "NoDisplay=true" argument yourself. Quicker, but not easily recoverable, is to just delete unwanted xxx.desktop files. Almost as quick, and easily recoverable is to change the argument following "Categories=". Puppies use this argument to determine where a listing will appear on the Menu an application will appear. If Puppy doesn't recognize a category, no listing will appear. There are no categories which begin with the letter 'z'. So, for example, editing Abiword's category argument to read "Categories=zWordProcessor;" will remove its Menu-listing.

----
* See http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 458#827458 and my layman's view of what this means: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 192#862192

A boot argument [pfix=copy] can be used to compel Puppy to load 'everything' within puppy_version_###.sfs into RAM. But IIRC, that 'everything' was caped at 256 Mbs.

[kimble]

Thanks for all those ideas, I feel like I'm starting to home in on the core of the problem, which was "what hasn't it got?", more fully meaning "What packages does a puppy NOT have that 'standard' Ubuntu HAS , (and what are the pros and cons of these decisions) ?" There must be some reason why no one has given me a straight answer to this question.

The "Linux from Scratch" link is very interesting, as it describes in complete detail how to download all the sources and tools and then build Linux from source, Their list of "essential packages" is longer than I thought it would be, but they all sound very professional and knowledgeable.

I assume DebianDog's approach is similar, I'm downloading Create Debian 9 (Stretch) minimal ISO (193 MB) now.

BTW I tried out EasyOS yesterday. It didn't connect to internet because Network Manager wouldn't start and Connect didn't work, so I was bit stuck for things to do with it. Couldn't register with EasyOS Forum because I didn't know the name of Barry's dog ! (help)

[rockedge]

the dog's name is Puppy I believe (hence the name Puppy Linux in his honor)
what ever is NOT in Puppy Linux that is in Ubuntu can be put there.
what is your goal exactly? what do you want to do or not do?

one can do some pretty amazing things with Puppy Linux

[mikeslr]

Hi kimble,

The only obvious things OOTB which Ubuntu/debian have which Puppy Linux doesn't is apt-get and synaptic. But Scottman's been working on a 'substitute'. See http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 531#985531. The 'substitute' is, in fact, be more versatile, being able to manage not only debs, but also .pet, tar.gz, .txz, .sfs, .rpm, and more. Discussion about it properly began in the "Cutting Edge" Section. But it's progressed to the point that it is now a feature of BionicPup64, and used to accomplish some tasks for which PPM was inadequate. http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 57#1016457

As rockedge wrote, "one can do some pretty amazing things with Puppy Linux". So, in answer to your question "What packages does a puppy NOT have that 'standard' Ubuntu HAS": A lot of unnecessary infra-structure. It also doesn't have some one or group to prevent you from taking your Puppy in any direction that you want.

Just decide what you want to do, then do it. If you run into any stumbling block, or just have a question whose resolution can be more efficiently resolved by advice than searching, Puppy has a friendly Forum with members anxious to help. That's something Ubuntu also doesn't have.

I don't think the debiandog's approach is similar to Linux from Scratch. Currently you have a choice between rcrsn51' 'barebones' ISO regarding which his thread provides recipes for 'fleshing out', http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 654#983654 beyond that available in any debian operating system or fredx181's "Create Debian 9 (Stretch) minimal ISO", http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 752#962752 which begins as a mklive-stretch Kit, then provides you the option of continuing either using the command-line or a GUI. In either case, compared to Linux from Scratch, there's little compiling involved as you'll immediately have access to debian-stretch repositories for the 'infra-structure' and 'user-applications' that organization has already created.

[6502coder]

Hi kimble,

I don't know what you mean by a "straight answer," but okay, I'll take a stab at it. I make a quick hop over to DistroWatch, look up Ubuntu, find 16.04 (Bionic Beaver), click for the package list. Oooh, 2,548 packages, listed alphabetically! Let's see, what's not in the Bionic Beaver Puppies? Just at glance: Apache? Nope. APT? Obviously not. Aptitude? Nope. ClamAV? Nope. Cheese? Nope. A whole bunch of fonts; gcc and all the other compilation tools for C, Python2/3, Perl, etc that Puppy sticks in the devx SFS; a ton of GNOME stuff, ImageMagick, LibreOffice, Thunderbird, Vim, man pages... you get the idea.

That's some of the "what." As for the "why": because most users don't need it; because there's an alternative with a smaller footprint that meets most users' needs; because historically Puppy strives to be friendly to low-spec hardware, and there's no point in putting antlers on a mouse even if you think antlers are useful.

The pros? More modest hardware requirements means Puppy can keep old computers running longer. The cons? Using apps that are less featureful and not what the "cool kids" are using. Doing some things differently from what you read in the Linux books. All this is "Puppy 101."

Maybe you'd be better off starting with one of the "barebones" Puppies that have been built from time to time. We could point you to a specific one if, as rockedge says, you'd tell us what it is you're trying to achieve.

[rufwoof]

Thanks for all those ideas, I feel like I'm starting to home in on the core of the problem, which was "what hasn't it got?"

One thing I really like about full versions is how the man pages (included documentation) are specific to the installed version. For instance I mostly boot OpenBSD and they even consider errors in the man pages as bugs. Things change and even general man pages on the web may not match what version you're running.

[kimble]

What am I trying to achieve?

Well, I am trying to run an OS on under-powered ARM equipment, so I want a very lightweight OS. By "OS" I mean the part that is not the apps, the part you don't see on the screen, but can find out about with "top" and things like that. OS + apps = distro. I want the apps that I work with every day to be efficient too, but it is more important that they be functional. Hence Dolphin for file manager, Thunderbird for email, Firefox for browsing, Libreoffice-calc for spreadsheets, Rhythmbox for music, etc. But I want to have the choice about which apps I have.

6502coder suggests an answer: Apache, Apt, Aptitude, ClamAV, Cheese, fonts, gcc, Python2/3, Perl, Gnome, Imgemagick, Libreoffice, Thunderbird, Vim. These are all apps except Gnome and apt. Python is a bit in-between because some of the OS contains bits that are written in PyGTK so you need Python for the OS.

So I come back to why is Ubuntu/Lubuntu so big and Puppy so small? - Single user, squashfs, JWM v Compiz/Openbox, Xfce v Gnome/LXDE, pet v apt. Does that explain Lubuntu-18.10-desktop-amd64.iso [1.6 GB] v LxPupBionic-18.05+23.iso [285 MB]. Even ubuntu-18.04-server-amd64.iso (without xorg and any desktop or apps) is 812 MB v Deblive-Stretch-i386-71.iso is 193 MB.

I don't think the big difference has been explained yet.

[ITSMERSH]

Oh yes, one of the big differences is -of course- JWM instead of any other window manager. You can proof this on a default Puppy with JWM and a similar (equally based) version with e.g. XFCE.

They differ in its sizes as well. Not too much, but they do.

Usually -and this is the clue- they (the XFCE versions) are missing a lot of libs, that are included into the original JWM Puppy to keep the Puppy small.

At least that's my experience from the past when trying some of the XFCE and LXDE Puppies. As far as I can recall there were lots of missing libs when using .sfs modules that I created for the similar JWM version - so its program won't start without to install some more dependencies.

[dancytron]

Oh yes, one of the big differences is -of course- JWM instead of any other window manager. You can proof this on a default Puppy with JWM and a similar (equally based) version with e.g. XFCE.

They differ in its sizes as well. Not too much, but they do.

Usually -and this is the clue- they (the XFCE versions) are missing a lot of libs, that are included into the original JWM Puppy to keep the Puppy small.

At least that's my experience from the past when trying some of the XFCE and LXDE Puppies. As far as I can recall there were lots of missing libs when using .sfs modules that I created for the similar JWM version - so its program won't start without to install some more dependencies.

This is absolutely the approach of Debian Dog etc. Debian dog leaves out the Mesa.dri lib and other 3d graphics stuff, cups, samba, gnumeric/abiword (most flavors), and I am sure some stuff I am leaving out that is included in puppy to be puppy sized and still include the necessary Debian base.

[dancytron]

What am I trying to achieve?

Well, I am trying to run an OS on under-powered ARM equipment, so

{{stuff snipped}}

I don't think the big difference has been explained yet.

Then at least here, your choices are pretty limited. The distros on this board that support ARM are either a few Puppy versions made for the first Raspberry Pi or the Fatdog Arm. http://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/web/arm-index.html

[mistfire]

You can also try the build kit of TazPuppy if you want a custom puppy. It is more easy to use

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=113255