Puppy Linux 4.2 Impressions

[Wosh]

First of all, congratulations for the new Puppy version. The only problem I had was the printer configuration that I was able to fix with the help of forum member rcrsn51. So on my PC it runs without bigger problem. I am rather content like I used to be with the versions before.

But a trend annoys me. It is the amount of superfluous gimmicks that have made it into this distribution. These would be fine in a derivative or as additional pets, but should they be defaults in a Linux distribution that deservedly is appreciated to be lean, fast and smart.

Some Examples:

1. Seamonkey
I am rather happy that sylpheed doesn't seem to be a topic any more and seamonkey mail has become default again. But the navigator has been configured a bit weird.
a) Why the Puppy at the right corner leads to the seamonkey instead of the Puppy home page?
b) Why is Google the default home page instead of the Puppy default homepage?
c) What has happened to the Puppy default homepage?
d) What has happened to the fool proof search-button?
e) Why do I have such gimmicks like "Reload" "Stop" "Print" within the toolbar instead of a decent sized url-input?
f) Why my "Personal Folder" is configured to puppylinux.ca instead of puppylinux.com or at least the wiki?

2. Desktop
a) Ptray at top of desktop pops up with unnecessary utilities.
Annoying but can be disabled

b) Add Icons crippled window at desktop left.
Unnecessary annoying fortunately can be closed

c) Add Widgets crippled window at desktop right.
Unnecessary annoying fortunately can be closed

d) The widgets like the big clock that distract the view from the current task
Annoyinig I have closed them.

e) Puppy-Control-Panel
Buttonmania, is this really necessary?

f) Menu-Item Refresh Menu
This item reminds me of the days of old MSDOS when some graphics application scrambled the screen of an IDE forcing the programmer to refresh screen manually. Does a sophisticated distribution like Puppy Linux nead that?

g) Shutdown Menu
For me the most annoying gimmik is this shutdown-button origy called /usr/bin/shutdownjwm which is called if you select the shutdown menu. The shutdown dialog is separated into two unreproducible options shutdown and advanced with such "shutdown options" like "Lock screen", "Manage Process" "Cancel". Advanced may only be activated by the mouse, a nightmare for keyboard orientated users. It reminds me totally of the windows shutdown which I really detest. Please put this gimmick where it belongs, into the garbage can. For those feeling simular to me I have modified .jwmrc to the intuitve behaviour as in earlier Puppy versions.

Don't misunderstand me. I am 99% content with Puppy Linux. But for me Puppy Linux is a racing car and not a van and I hope it will stay. So please overcome the tempations that already made other distributions become fat and slow vans or at least offer them as pets.

These are my impressions. What about yours?

[ecomoney]

Hello Wosh, thank you for posting your review. You make many good points. I take it from the level of detail you are able to put in your post, you are an experienced linux user, rather than a new linux user.

Heres our "mission statement" again

- Puppy will easily install to USB, Zip or hard drive media.
- Booting from CD, Puppy will load totally into RAM so that the CD drive is then free for other purposes.
- Booting from CD, Puppy can save everything back to the CD, no need for a hard drive.
- Booting from USB, Puppy will greatly minimize writes, to extend the life of Flash devices indefinitely.
- Puppy will be extremely friendly for Linux newbies.
- Puppy will boot up and run extraordinarily fast.
- Puppy will have all the applications needed for daily use.
- Puppy will just work, no hassles.

There was a lot of debate about the inclusion of pWidgets/wbar/pTray in the main release. Many of the more experienced linux users found the "linux newbie" features annoying and got in the way. I feel that considering the intended purpose of Puppy Linux, including them for the main release WAS the right way to go. Of course, the opinions of developers/experienced linux users are important too, and Ttuuxxx (lead developer of 4.2) produced a "bling-free" edition of 4.2 for this need. I believe aiming the main release at "Newbies", and having a "derivitive" without these usability features removed for more advanced users is the best policy overall....for gaining more linux users Much kudos IMHO to WhoDo (4.2. project co-ordinator) for this.

You can download Ttuxxxes "bling-free" edition from here

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=40486

Were are also starting using (for the first time in puppies history) a very rudimentary bug tracking system, which were using for the new 4.2.1 beta2 that has just come out.

announcement

I hope with your skills, you will join the testing effort for this, and report the jwm bug in the bug-tracker.

Hopefully also Ttuxxx will produce a 4.2.1 "bling-free" edition for more experienced users, something tells me he will.

[Oakems]

Hopefully also Ttuxxx will produce a 4.2.1 "bling-free" edition for more experienced users, something tells me he will.

I hope so, I'm really enjoying 4.2 DeeperThought! I have woefully old hardware!

[Wosh]

@ ecomoney and others

If you read my first post attentively many of them should annoy every kind of Puppy Linux users because they are not intuitive superfluous and misleading. They main goal of a good product is:

Keep it as simple as possible but not more simple.

Most of the new blings distract wihout offering adequate use. Deep thought?

With reference to your aims I think you miss the point. Puppy Linux is not intended to be nor will it ever be a newbie distribution. The advantage of Puppy Linux to other distributions is to be a small fast intelligent frugal distribution that may be used rather comfortable in spite of it's self imposed restrictions.

It's niche is for those which like this kind of stuff or those that have hardware restricting them to this kind of stuff.

It is my favorite for these properties and I use it because of these properties. I am also skilled enough to run it effectively. So don't care, for me it's not a big thing to adapt it to my needs.

You should not compete in areas where others are better. I never recommend Puppy Linux to a newbie because the Un*x world is to different from the Windows world and distributions like Ubuntu offer lots more support to her/him to get accustomed to this world than Puppy ever will be able to do.

As I have posted before Puppy Linux is more like a sports car. You must know how to run and then it's real fun or you will crash.

So please refrain to incorporate cup holders and seat heaters into Puppy Linux. There are already to many distributions that are specialized to this kind of job. Keep Puppy Linux unique, simple and easy to handle.

What about your opinion?

[ICPUG]

Wosh

You say that Puppy Linux is not intended to be nor will it ever be a newbie distribution.

Yet those aims which Ecomoney quoted, including 'Puppy will be extremely friendly for Linux newbies' comes directly from Barry Kauler's web site for Puppy. Barry is the originator of Puppy.

As Barry takes precedence over everybody here I think you have misinterpreted the intention of Puppy.

Having said that there are different types of user. Some like bling. Some do not. You fall into the second category but don't begrudge those in the first category their copy of Puppy.

Another categorisation is that some users are keyboard oriented and some are mouse oriented. You get upset by the new shutdown menu and I get your point about non keyboard accessible functions. However, if you are a trackpad user it is my experience that it is easier to actually reach the shutdown button with the new menu than it was the old way.

There is room for everybody. Let's get along.

[ecomoney]

One of puppies great tricks is that it can easily be remastered to suit different purposes to which it can be developed...and make everyone happy.

Ive tried Ubuntu, and have quite a bit of experience in it. Puppy has the potential to be a lot better "starter/refugee distro" IMHO with a few simple UI changes/more focus on its mission.

A refugee distro is really what is needed in the world right now, where 9/10 people use micro$oft...that will probably change when 9/10 people run linux. Read this thread, and you will see why its needed.

BarryK himself started the puppy linux project to migrate HIMSELF from Windows and learn along the way. He wrote the mission statement when he himself was a lowly "Linux Newbie"....look at him now!

[Oakems]

My opinion would be, what about Deeperthought Puppy? Its Puppy 4.2 WITHOUT the bling. That is what your talking about isn't it? I don't see why people are getting so annoyed? Okay so its not flagged as the 'main' release, but its THERE! If you wanted Puppy with an older kernel you'd download Puppy retro wouldn't you? So if you want Puppy 4.2 without bling download Deeperthought (simple).

And I have to say I'd disagree with you about Puppy not being for the beginner. So far almost everything's just worked, the only thing I can't get to work is my sound card, that's it. But then It seems like I'd have trouble with it on most other distros as well (I've looked around). Some people don't have many options when it comes to choosing a distro because of hardware limitations, so Ubuntu and others are out of the question. Plus if you have a frugal install and anything should go wrong, be it through fault of your own newbish'ness or not. You can easily fix it by deleting your save file and starting again, okay you lose all your settings etc but much better than a NEW install surely, or not even being able to do that.

[Gorilla no baka]

Mr hot shot forgets what a completly pain in the rect is just to watch a DVD on any other distribution OUT OF THE BOX.,,,


Now lemme remind you gentelmens and console hotshots that Puppy is the only distro that allows you to put in a dvd movie and bloddy hell it just works..!!

Without any bloody apt-get install bollocks any long and painfull scrolling and searching trough repositories...


sudo apt-get install libdvdcss2

wget -c http://packages.medibuntu.org/pool/free ... 4_i386.deb
sudo dpkg -i libdvdcss2_1.2.9-2medibuntu4_i386.deb


remember now....?????

and the list goes on and on...

In my opinion Puppy linux is more newbie friendly than ubuntu or anyother distros out there ...

Beside due to the fact that puppy is a slimmed down version a dumbed down one if you want, there`s not much things you can do at a console...

[dogle]

Hat-tip to Wosh for this thread. I agree strongly with most of the views expressed, but like others I have to take exception to the not-for- newbies remark (blasphemy!) ;-)

Barry has received scant credit for his long labours in making Puppy ship with exceptionally good built-in documentation for a little distro, aimed at helping the newbie. (Can anyone think of another which is anywhere near so good in this respect?).

I fear that the loose use of the loose word 'bling' is going to kick off a few (more) misunderstandings in this forum if we are not careful. I believe its origins lie in cheap flashy ornaments for wear by the feeble-minded, and in that perjorative sense I'll certainly accept it as signifying exactly what I don't want in Puppy.

Sure, Puppy newbies need all the help we can give them but they are surely not in the non-thinking-types bracket. IMHO any unnecessary glitz is counterproductive; sure, good appearance is important but decoration should always be subservient to usability. So, yes to user choice, and I too look forward to a 'bling-free' version.

Historical bit: long long ago I opened an early version of a thing called Ubumtoo or something like that. The unnecessary eye-candy was so repugnant to me I closed it at once and never sniffed it again ... and went on immediately to become irredeemably hooked on Puppy.

[ecomoney]

Yes..."bling" is not a particularly helpful word. Puppy 4.2 was the first puppy in years that actually Looked attractive...i.e. was not grey. This didnt slow it it down and is something that would be easy to make for future puppies.

Jwm (our window manager that does the "start" menu) is not set up so that desktop shortcuts can be created in the "conventional" way by dragging them to the desktop to create a shortcut.This is why we used ptray.

If by "bling" you mean the desktop widgets (clock and such like)....they are nice yes...necessary? no.

Sure puppy is a fast system, but if it takes an hour of training and reading just to make a desktop shortcut then it defeats the point.

Much more work could go into the useability side imho, its just I cant code!!!! Its something that drives me frantic with frustration!

Yes GNB, ubuntu is not as refugee friendly as puppy, both have a long way to go. All it would take is the will of a good developer and some real study into "linux newbies", and the Micro$oft empire would be on its knees....

[goes and look up bash programming 101.....]

[Gorilla no baka]

Yes..."bling" is not a particularly helpful word. Puppy 4.2 was the first puppy in years that actually Looked attractive...i.e. was not grey. This didnt slow it it down and is something that would be easy to make for future puppies.

Wrong ... the first Puppy that looked atractive it was 215CE

[ecomoney]

Wrong ... the first Puppy that looked atractive it was 215CE

I stand corrected!

Whodo was co-ordinator for that too.

[dogle]

At risk of a little benign thread drift - I've a feeling that Ecomoney is onto something fundamentally important in saying

and some real study into "linux newbies", and the Micro$oft empire would be on its knees....

I'm very interested to know what form he (as a leading expert on newbie-induction himself) feels such study should take.

Back on topic: yes, the clock is pretty, but pretty useless ... in real use, if you see what I mean.

Yes, WhoDo did a great job with 2.15CE, but I'm afraid I had the same very negative reaction as mentioned with that Ubuntu - I was so repelled by the eye-candy I just didn't use it. Shame, but that's me.

[trio]

CHOICES

that's what it's all about...

bling? no bling? --> choice
update software? stay with current? --> choice
etc..etc

and the coordinator should decide what he thinks best in CURRENT situation...should next coordinator decides not even a bit bling included, let it be, there will be puppies with a lot of blings coming, just like now that there're some bling puppies and non bling puppies...why? because we can........

If you want UGLY puppy, there is must be one somewhere NOW..just search it...you don't want to use 4.2 because of bling, then don't use it.

[dogle]

Agreed, that choice enables people like GNB and myself to enjoy opposite ends of the Puppy rainbow. However, cold newbies are unaware of Puppy's great flexibility and any coordinator has some pretty tough decisions to make in seeking to address their perceived needs.

I mean, how long is it going to take a complete newbie even to discover the package manager, still less to understand the huge but easy power of choice it puts at his fingertips. One of Puppy's great - and growing - strengths is a 'lamp hidden under a bushel' in this scenario.

So, I support Wosh's comments about the missing default homepage. It would stand rewriting to give the newbie a better hint of joys like the package manager but it is a pity to leave out something so potentially helpful to newcomers.

[Patriot]

Hmmm .....

........
Jwm (our window manager that does the "start" menu) is not set up so that desktop shortcuts can be created in the "conventional" way by dragging them to the desktop to create a shortcut.This is why we used ptray.
........

JWM is a window manager at its core with built-in support for menu, taskbar and tray. The "not set up" phrase has no bearing since it is not possible to do so in the first place. Drag-n-drop (DND)functionality is non-existent in JWM, period. Anyone who wishes to add-in drag-n-drop functionality to JWM menus is welcomed.

To set the record straight, Puppy desktop interface is implemented by using ROX Desktop. Drag-n-drop file loading (or drag-n-drop desktop shortcut) and drag-n-drop saving is already supported by ROX. ROX DND support, AFAIK, is done according to X specification (which I'm lame at reading that much, yet). At the most, dragging a file or entry from ROX-Filer to the desktop is all it takes to have a shortcut created. Setting the icon is also just another seamless drag-n-drop effort. It is misleading to say that making a desktop shortcut requires such a huge effort.


Rgds

[Oakems]

Advanced may only be activated by the mouse, a nightmare for keyboard orientated users. It reminds me totally of the windows shutdown which I really detest. Please put this gimmick where it belongs, into the garbage can. For those feeling simular to me I have modified .jwmrc to the intuitve behaviour as in earlier Puppy versions.

That's really odd, that doesn't happen to me, I can use the arrows keys to navigate to the advanced menu. Can't you just scroll with the arrow keys? Just make sure you have the 'shutdown' tab highlighted first, bit late now though, I suppose.

[thane]

As a Windows user who wanted to try out Linux, I spent a fair amount of time looking around the web at the features of different distros. Based on some favorable comments Puppy was the first one I tried. I was (and am) impressed. Within a few minutes a circa year 2000 computer that had been sitting in storage for 3 years was running a complete set of apps. If anything for me it was overkill; I was mainly just looking to run a web browser and a few plug-ins.

Lately I've been using Tiny Core Linux just to see the minimum number of apps I can get by with (5 so far). But if I'd been looking for something with the full functionality of Windows (as well as faster, more reliable, and free) I would have stopped at Puppy Linux.

[sneekylinux]

Have followed this thread for a while now,and do agree with a lot of the stuff that wosh has said,e.g.to many widgits and it all falls of at the end of your screen.......lol
i have purposely not produced a video for puppy 4.2 for these reasons,as although overall 4.2 is very swish,when installing on an older lappy,the new bling just slows it soo much.
to the point that the last install of puppy i did was of 4.1,and it was so much faster,in use and install.
so in reallity what do we do,my programing skills are old,and i am on a steep learning curve for myself,and it will take me a while before i can even match a lot of you(remember the zx80...lol)
i would just like to know where we are headed???

[ecomoney]

Sorry Patriot, I was using "windows user" terminology with the "unconventional", we have different ways of "setting things up" i.e. editing the source

Its pretty "unconventional" to be able to do vista transparency in 100k too!

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/2725/jwmscr2.png

Im a big fan of your WM Patriot