boycott systemd

Message

stemsee · #301 Post by **stemsee** » Mon 27 Apr 2015, 12:51

systemd seems to me like "...putting all your eggs in one basket!" we were always told not to! Having said that I like having a choice! So write a script which allows you to boot with either of several methods, 'why not?' ... well, I can't pretend to know much about it!

anikin · #302 Post by **anikin** » Mon 27 Apr 2015, 14:06

mavrothal wrote:...DebianDog spins are based on the DebianLive > SageDebianLive > Debian-Light-builder by emil, chain.
Systemd is in Debian since the beginning.
Several months now is decided that systemd will be the default init in Debian.
DebianLive uses systemd-config package which is in the repos sometime now.
So it would appear that there is no apparent problem in deploying a systemd-based DebianDog spin.
So it is clear that you choose to avoid systemd in your spins and to not offer it even as an option
Could you tell us why?

...systemd was included in Debian wheezy as a technology preview. Please make sure that you are using Debian testing or newer to get a recent version of systemd

read more at: https://wiki.debian.org/systemd

Untill very recently, Debian Dog, as well as Debian stable was based on Wheezy. If you follow the DD thread, Toni (aka saintless) has mentioned in one of his recent posts, that probably it would take a couple (or so) months before DD Jessie would be released. In other words, formally DD is still DD Wheezy. Even though systemd is a preview in DD Wheezy it was offered for testing. And we did test it a long time ago. Apparently you didn't follow the thread and missed the opportunity.

@ starhawk & bbb,

You guys, crack me up.
Reading your comments, I see, you have already tied Toni to the stake, poured gasoiline on the wood and are ready to set it on fire.
Let me ask you a question, are you qualified enough to pass judgement on init systems?
Keep in mind, Toni speaks from his personal experience - and you?

mavrothal · #303 Post by **mavrothal** » Mon 27 Apr 2015, 14:21

anikin wrote:Even though systemd is a preview in DD Wheezy it was offered for testing.

Nice.
Link?

anikin · #304 Post by **anikin** » Mon 27 Apr 2015, 14:45

I can't find the link, sorry. Maybe, Toni has it, I can only say, that it was a long time ago. I still have leftover systemd files in my DD Wheezy from that testing.

mavrothal · #305 Post by **mavrothal** » Mon 27 Apr 2015, 14:49

anikin wrote:I can't find the link, sorry. Maybe, Toni has it, I can only say, that it was a long time ago. I still have leftover systemd files in my DD Wheezy from that testing.

OK, thanks.
Was it dropped for some reason?

anikin · #306 Post by **anikin** » Mon 27 Apr 2015, 15:04

Let's hear Toni on his one.

I might be wrong, but one of Fred's latest (openbox) builds should be systemd, again let's hear the guys on this one too.

gcmartin · #307 Post by **gcmartin** » Mon 27 Apr 2015, 16:33

WE, the contributers here, are waging a war which is needless, and does NOT bring light to what exist and how best to use any of the 3 strategies here.

Further, since PC industry manufacturers have adopted their approach, YOU nor I have any means of changing that as it is our present and probably for our future over the next decade.

So which (I ask differently) ... is the most practical thing that PUPPY can do?

Embrace them all?
Demonize them all?
Create "camp" of tribes following a particular religion?
Take a practical view and approach which is consistent with PC manufacturers so that PUPs will run no matter what and with as little retooling to match future needs?

Or THINK! Can this subject be approached in a more Puppy productive manner (not thread infighting, I mean this thread leading to understanding for Puppy benefit)?

It doesn't matter if you have PC building experience or NOT. The manufacturers have spoken and educational institutions are running with the new replacement to old BIOS thinking. Old BIOS is out and will never return as businesses have moved to new methods in manufacturing.

YOU and I cannot stop it. But, WE can manage it, all of it, to our benefit!

Step back and look. THINK!

anikin · #308 Post by **anikin** » Mon 27 Apr 2015, 17:12

I should clarify that we did test systemd on DD Wheezy based on the instructions in the wiki, see here: https://wiki.debian.org/systemd. It definitely wasn't a special, systemd ISO release at the time, just the instructions provided by Toni. I believe, he took them from the wiki. That's why I have leftover systemd files in my DD - removed systemd but didn't purge.

bark_bark_bark · #309 Post by **bark_bark_bark** » Mon 27 Apr 2015, 17:20

anikin wrote:Let me ask you a question, are you qualified enough to pass judgement on init systems?
Keep in mind, Toni speaks from his personal experience - and you?

I speak from personal experience.

Dear (blind) systemd fanboy, Are YOU qualified enough to pass judgement on init systems? And are YOU, speaking from personal experience or are you just following the popular crowd blindly like a sheep?

saintless · #310 Post by **saintless** » Mon 27 Apr 2015, 20:07

mavrothal wrote:So it would appear that there is no apparent problem in deploying a systemd-based DebianDog spin.
So it is clear that you choose to avoid systemd in your spins and to not offer it even as an option
Could you tell us why?

I really like to avoid answering your questions. I hope you remember you are the one who wrote we do not speak the same language and I agree. Chating with you makes me feel bad because you are not telling the truth.

How to install Systemd in Debian and DebianDog Wheezy with support to use systemd with live-boot2,3 and porteus-boot

New version Porteus-Wheezy-3.13.6-openbox.iso. Added same improvements like in DebianDog latest version but the kernel is 3.13.6 from Porteus and the modules extension is .xzm (like in Porteus). This version runs with systemd boot enabled.

DebianDog-Jessie-OpenBox.iso with default systemd boot (sysvinit is not installed) - Direct download link to the iso

Working on DebianDog-SID-Jwm-Icewm.iso with both systemd and sysvinit included with menu entry to boot systemd or sysvinit

bark_bark_bark · #311 Post by **bark_bark_bark** » Mon 27 Apr 2015, 20:12

saintless wrote:
mavrothal wrote:So it would appear that there is no apparent problem in deploying a systemd-based DebianDog spin.
So it is clear that you choose to avoid systemd in your spins and to not offer it even as an option
Could you tell us why?
I really like to avoid answering your questions. I hope you remember you are the one who wrote we do not speak the same language and I agree. Chating with you makes me feel bad because you are not telling the truth.

How to install Systemd in Debian and DebianDog Wheezy with support to use systemd with live-boot2,3 and porteus-boot

New version Porteus-Wheezy-3.13.6-openbox.iso. Added same improvements like in DebianDog latest version but the kernel is 3.13.6 from Porteus and the modules extension is .xzm (like in Porteus). This version runs with systemd boot enabled.

DebianDog-Jessie-OpenBox.iso with default systemd boot (sysvinit is not installed) - Direct download link to the iso

Working on DebianDog-SID-Jwm-Icewm.iso with both systemd and sysvinit included with menu entry to boot systemd or sysvinit

First off, I highly doubt he was lying.

Second, I applaud your decision to give users choice.

saintless · #312 Post by **saintless** » Mon 27 Apr 2015, 20:14

Scooby wrote:If your position is that it is the developers choice what to be the default init
then maybe you should extend that courtesy towards Devuan developers as well.

I do. I understand they are trying to get more followers but doing this by lying about official Debian is something I do not like and do not respect.

mcewanw · #313 Post by **mcewanw** » Mon 27 Apr 2015, 20:44

DebianDog indeed allows user choice to use either systemd or sysvinit and has done for a long time. No particular bias about it really - up to the users' wishes. And yes, Fred's DD openbox version of 11.082014 has systemd boot enabled by default:

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 990#777990

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 071#839071

Since there seems to be some misunderstanding of what DebianDog is, by some Puppy users it seems:

DebianDog is based on Debian Live, heavily pruned to make it Puppy-sized whilst keeping full Debian compatibility, so completely extendible via Synaptics GUI and/or apt-get package management.

DebianDog however has many useful facilities added including quick load support for sfs files (including those created for Puppy), can automatically create sfs files from packages downloaded directly from Debian repositories (using Fred's apt2sfs utility) and has incorporated many Puppy utilities and many many more of its own. It has also been given Puppy look and feel (root user by default though full multiuser), including JWM (or icewm or openbox) which makes it familiar to longtime Puppy users such as myself.

I don't myself see DebianDog as being in any way in competition with Puppy though. Rather I think Puppy and DD benefit each other since utilities developed for one can be so easily ported to the other (e.g. DD also comes with gtkdialog by default). However, if a user wants to experiment/compare the likes of systemd versus sysvinit, DebianDog provides a good platform for that since its underlying core is pure Debian compatible so package management is a breeze and it has terrific remastering tools too.

So I feel that it's good to use and play with both Puppy and DD since much to learn from both and DD is a nice step to also learning Debian (or Debian-based systems such as Linux Mint and Ubuntu) since DD is so small to download (and maintain) and so Puppy like in environment. Fatdog64 and Quirky are equally interesting in their own right for the alternative perspectives they provide.

William

bark_bark_bark · #314 Post by **bark_bark_bark** » Mon 27 Apr 2015, 22:44

saintless wrote:
Scooby wrote:If your position is that it is the developers choice what to be the default init
then maybe you should extend that courtesy towards Devuan developers as well.
I do. I understand they are trying to get more followers but doing this by lying about official Debian is something I do not like and do not respect.

The devuan developers were not lying.

mavrothal · #315 Post by **mavrothal** » Tue 28 Apr 2015, 03:12

saintless wrote:you are the one who wrote we do not speak the same language and I agree.

You are right. Sorry.

James C · #316 Post by **James C** » Thu 30 Apr 2015, 19:11

Debian Long Term Support

https://wiki.debian.org/LTS/

[quote]Thus the Debian LTS team takes over security maintenance of the various releases once the Debian Security team stops its work. The team will thus handle:

Debian 6 “Squeeze

James C · #317 Post by **James C** » Sun 03 May 2015, 05:58

systemd revolutionizes hacking your PC!

https://systemdexploit.wordpress.com/

jamesbond · #318 Post by **jamesbond** » Sun 03 May 2015, 09:37

James C wrote:systemd revolutionizes hacking your PC!

https://systemdexploit.wordpress.com/

That's a good one

8Geee · #319 Post by **8Geee** » Sun 03 May 2015, 15:43

+1

M$ must be readying the Lawyer Patrol, smells like patent infringement

technosaurus · #320 Post by **technosaurus** » Tue 19 May 2015, 14:43

a complete statically compiled busybox system rings in at ~1mb.
OTOH systemd provides at least an additional 1% functionality for only ... lets do the math:

Code: Select all

(Debian example: duplicate dependencies removed for brevity
 ... note the lack of a shell, and many other tools provided by busybox
 ... but that's OK, you can just roll your own in perl or slang)

systemd : 13,458.0 kB
 |- libc6 : 10,291.0 kB
 |  |- libgcc1 : 129.0 kB
 |  |  |- multiarch-support : 216.0 kB
 |  |  |- gcc-4.9-base : 218.0 kB
 |- libgcrypt20 : 1,033.0 kB
 |  |- libgpg-error0 : 444.0 kB
 |- liblzma5 : 309.0 kB
 |- acl : 258.0 kB
 |  |- libattr1 : 30.0 kB
 |- adduser : 1,066.0 kB
 |  |- debconf : 614.0 kB
 |  |- passwd : 2,132.0 kB
 |  |  |- debianutils : 147.0 kB
 |  |  |  |- sensible-utils : 110.0 kB
 |  |  |- libpam-modules : 852.0 kB
 |  |  |  |- libdb5.3 : 1,812.0 kB
 |  |  |  |- libpam-modules-bin : 248.0 kB
 |  |  |- libsemanage1 : 245.0 kB
 |  |     |- libsemanage-common : 65.0 kB
 |  |     |- libsepol1 : 339.0 kB
 |  |     |- libustr-1.0-1 : 287.0 kB
 |  |- perl-base : 4,643.0 kB
 |     |- dpkg : 7,195.0 kB
 |        |- libbz2-1.0 : 114.0 kB
 |        |- tar : 2,619.0 kB
 |        |- zlib1g : 179.0 kB
 |- initscripts : 165.0 kB
 |  |- coreutils : 14,249.0 kB
 |  |- lsb-base : 72.0 kB
 |  |- sysvinit-utils : 147.0 kB
 |     |- startpar : 95.0 kB
 |- libacl1 : 80.0 kB
 |- libaudit1 : 157.0 kB
 |  |- libaudit-common : 49.0 kB   
 |- libblkid1 : 326.0 kB
 |  |- libuuid1 : 89.0 kB
 |- libcap2 : 61.0 kB
 |- libcap2-bin : 110.0 kB
 |- libcryptsetup4 : 252.0 kB
 |  |- libdevmapper1.02.1 : 330.0 kB
 |  |  |- dmsetup : 123.0 kB
 |- libkmod2 : 134.0 kB
 |- libpam0g : 248.0 kB
 | |- libselinux1 : 213.0 kB
 |  |- libpcre3 : 672.0 kB
 |- libsystemd0 : 181.0 kB
 |- mount : 357.0 kB
 |  |- libmount1 : 357.0 kB
 |  |- libsmartcols1 : 209.0 kB 
 |- sysv-rc OR file-rc : 141.0 kB
 |  *******    |- insserv : 183.0 kB
 |- udev : 5,924.0 kB
 |  |- libudev1 : 98.0 kB
 |  |- procps : 670.0 kB
 |  |  |- libncursesw5 : 388.0 kB
 |  |  |- libprocps3 : 132.0 kB
 |- util-linux : 2,733.0 kB
    |- libncurses5 : 306.0 kB
    |- libslang2 : 1,543.0 kB
    |- libtinfo5 : 480.0 kB
    |- tzdata : 1,546.0 kB

nevermind, that's too much math
... but definitely not something you would want in an initramfs

(old)Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

(old)Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

boycott systemd

Debian Long Term Support

systemd revolutionizes hacking your PC!

Re: systemd revolutionizes hacking your PC!