Off topic - Suggestions for Forum Improvemen

[marksouth2000]

I agree that people asking for help with their Puppy derivatives in this forum seem a little bit off-topic.

So let's get this straight, you are saying that the solution to the problem amish was talking about, of having the community splintering, is to tell anyone who makes a custom version of puppy to go out and start their own forum and set up their own community?

Please tell me that isn't what you were saying...?

PS Anyone else who reads this message, please reply to it and quote it before it gets deleted from the forum, thanks.

[HairyWill]

I agree that people asking for help with their Puppy derivatives in this forum seem a little bit off-topic.

So let's get this straight, you are saying that the solution to the problem amish was talking about, of having the community splintering, is to tell anyone who makes a custom version of puppy to go out and start their own forum and set up their own community?

Please tell me that isn't what you were saying...?

PS Anyone else who reads this message, please reply to it and quote it before it gets deleted from the forum, thanks.

Touch of paranoia there Mark?
You have changed the context of what Flash was saying by removing this

People who offer a customized Puppy might consider that, and make arrangements to support at least the custom bits.

The emphasis should be on custom bits. I can't really see this being a problem unless someone creates a really bad non-functional highly divergeant derivative, which may generate some flac before it dies. I this is fairly unlikely though.

[marksouth2000]

Touch of paranoia there Mark?

First, thanks for replying, it makes it a lot harder for the post to just vanish silently.

Secondly, t's not paranoia if it actually happens, and a lot of funny stuff goes on in this forum. I'm not the only one who has posts go missing from time to time, normally those in which I express an opinion contrary to that of certain other members of the forum.

Take a look at this thread, for example (note the post by Gn2 at the bottom of page 4) and see if you can work out how it happens that the poster "miriam" has moderator privileges:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 6&start=45

You have changed the context of what Flash was saying

Well, it's not Usenet, you only have to scroll up the page to see what Flash was saying, which is that help with Puppy derivatives is off-topic here.

If that is true, then the various threads on BarelyPup, Muppy, PizzaPup, etc should be taken out of the forum and their originators should have to support them somewhere else.

Of course, if one arrives at stupid conclusions by the exercise of simple logic, it casts doubt on the basic premise, doesn't it?

For my money, Puppy and its derivatives and all the Puppy community should be welcome here. The fact that not all of us are equally welcome says more about the present state of this forum than about the way things should be.

Cheers anyway,
Mark

PS To all forum participants, again, if you see this post please reply to it (preferably quoting from it) to make it harder to remove, thanks.[/url]

[klhrevolutionist]

The bad thing is you address the issue & the deleting, censoring and misrepresenting stops. then when you are confortable it starts again... I went through this for to long and now realize (add what you will).

For Mark

I agree that people asking for help with their Puppy derivatives in this forum seem a little bit off-topic.

by: flash

[alienjeff]

We've apparently lost another "one of the good guys" thanks to someone's overbearing control freak issues.

This selective editing and eradication that goes on both here and on the wiki is going to further erode the community. The hierarchy is corrupt.

A few of us will remain "the paranoids" until it's YOU who has a post removed or modified. Then and only then will you appreciate what you so hastily cast aside as "paranoid ramblings."

Touch of paranoia there Mark?

First, thanks for replying, it makes it a lot harder for the post to just vanish silently.

Secondly, t's not paranoia if it actually happens, and a lot of funny stuff goes on in this forum. I'm not the only one who has posts go missing from time to time, normally those in which I express an opinion contrary to that of certain other members of the forum.

Take a look at this thread, for example (note the post by Gn2 at the bottom of page 4) and see if you can work out how it happens that the poster "miriam" has moderator privileges:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 6&start=45

You have changed the context of what Flash was saying

Well, it's not Usenet, you only have to scroll up the page to see what Flash was saying, which is that help with Puppy derivatives is off-topic here.

If that is true, then the various threads on BarelyPup, Muppy, PizzaPup, etc should be taken out of the forum and their originators should have to support them somewhere else.

Of course, if one arrives at stupid conclusions by the exercise of simple logic, it casts doubt on the basic premise, doesn't it?

For my money, Puppy and its derivatives and all the Puppy community should be welcome here. The fact that not all of us are equally welcome says more about the present state of this forum than about the way things should be.

Cheers anyway,
Mark

PS To all forum participants, again, if you see this post please reply to it (preferably quoting from it) to make it harder to remove, thanks.[/url]

[JohnMurga]

We've apparently lost another "one of the good guys" thanks to someone's overbearing control freak issues.

This selective editing and eradication that goes on both here and on the forum is going to further erode the community. The hierarchy is corrupt.

A few of us will remain "the paranoids" until it's YOU who has a post removed or modified. Then and only then will you appreciate what you so hastily cast aside as "paranoid ramblings."

To be honest I have kinda of had it with the behaviour of a few people on here right now. If you can give me examples I will look into anything, and I have spent countless hours making sure this forum runs and investigating issues and incidents, to make sure Puppy has a secure and reliable forum.

If you have a problem, report it, help me get to the bottom of it ... Don't cast aspersions on what we've got here and make our work worthless.

Yes, Flash's words where taken out of context by people who increasingly have an agenda against God-knows-what (or who enjoy being on the fringe, or victims, or whatever) ...

I have done my best to respect differing views and create an enviroment where everyone is welcome, even offered help to people who where out of favour.

BUT

Do me a favour and work with me here ...
Or at least, stop pissing all over our front room.

Cheers
JohnM

PS : And yes, I am upset ...

[klhrevolutionist]

I suggest all new moderators of all diversity. and exclude myself from the list if this were to take place.

[marksouth2000]

To be honest I have kinda of had it with the behaviour of a few people on here right now.

I'm right with you on that.

If you can give me examples I will look into anything, and I have spent countless hours making sure this forum runs and investigating issues and incidents, to make sure Puppy has a secure and reliable forum.

John, everyone appreciates the time, effort, and money that you have put into running this forum. I appreciate it so much that in the past I've emailed and offered to help in any way that you thought would assist you. You said you'd get back to me when you'd thought about it. Remember?

If you have a problem, report it, help me get to the bottom of it ... Don't cast aspersions on what we've got here and make our work worthless.

I've reported the problem to you myself. I've provided evidence when Sage has reported the problem to you. I have shown you copies of the hate mail I've received from a moderator. What do you expect me to do before you believe me? Do I have to archive all the forum pages I post to so they can be used as evidence in case someone deletes one of my posts? Does that sound unreasonable at all?

I also recall that, when you last asked for suggestions for new moderators, two other regulars here suggested my name (without actually asking me in advance, the cheeky sods!) and you rejected the suggestion out of hand on the grounds that I was mentally unstable, remember? And you concluded that from the fact that I had told you before that posts had been deleted. You're free to do what you like with the forum. It's yours. But you still can't reach the right conclusions by faulty reasoning, or by ignoring the facts.

Yes, Flash's words where taken out of context by people who increasingly have an agenda against God-knows-what (or who enjoy being on the fringe, or victims, or whatever) ...

Actually, John, that's poor rationalisation. No one enjoys being a victim. I like it so little that I've basically stopped posting here. Which do you think is worse, arguing with someone's words, or simply deleting their entire post?

Do me a favour and work with me here ...
Or at least, stop pissing all over our front room.

The fundamental problem is that there appear to be people with real forum powers doing just that, and the rest of us would like it to stop, since it makes contributing to the forum something of a waste of time, and gets in the way of contributing to any forward progress for Puppy.

Best wishes,
Mark

PS To all the many friends I have made here, goodbye. I expect that this is the last posting I will ever be able to make, even if it lasts longer than a few minutes.

[marksouth2000]

Take a look at this thread, for example (note the post by Gn2 at the bottom of page 4) and see if you can work out how it happens that the poster "miriam" has moderator privileges:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 6&start=45

Until I posted that, there were 5 pages on that thread, suddenly there are only 4, and no post by Gn2 at the bottom of page 4.

Gee, I wonder how that happened, and whether the person who did it knows how to hide their traces in the logs, or whether John Murga can see who edited that page sometime in the last few hours? Since it's obvious who "miriam" is when (s)he's a moderator, it should be simple for John to see who's messing up the front room.

Oh, well, this post certainly won't last very long unless it gets quoted rapidly!

Mark

[muggins]

Take a look at this thread, for example (note the post by Gn2 at the bottom of page 4) and see if you can work out how it happens that the poster "miriam" has moderator privileges:

i took your advice & had a look....but the post by gn2, that i think you were referring to, where miriam did an edit without it showing, has been expunged!!!

has gn2 been expunged as well??

[alienjeff]

took your advice & had a look....but the post by gn2, that i think you were referring to, where miriam did an edit without it showing, has been expunged!!!

has gn2 been expunged as well??

Need any MORE proof, John?

[marksouth2000]

Take a look at this thread, for example (note the post by Gn2 at the bottom of page 4) and see if you can work out how it happens that the poster "miriam" has moderator privileges:

i took your advice & had a look....but the post by gn2, that i think you were referring to, where miriam did an edit without it showing, has been expunged!!!

has gn2 been expunged as well??

That's the one, muggins, you remember it exactly as I do, and it was still there this morning when I looked for it to copy the link.

I hope Gn2 has not been expunged, but I have the impression that he was pretty disenchanted with the issues we are talking about here.

Cheers,
Mark

PS If you can read this it still hasn't been deleted!

[Pizzasgood]

Are you referring to a comment he made about miriam's post being edited without the "edited at xxxx by xxxx" tag? I remember a comment once like that, but I don't remember where or when. I'm pretty sure it was Gn2 who made it though. I don't know for sure, but I think when you edit your post quickly enough after posting it, the tag is not left. However, that wouldn't explain a deleted post.

Also, if it coincided with the updates John was doing, the missing tag could be related to that. I believe at one point normal members could also post stickies, so temporary "edit immunity" could also have happened.


Of course, I could be remembering an entirely different thread.

[Flash]

Sheesh, this talk of expunging and hate mail by mystery moderators is all news to me. I guess I'm not reading every single post. Or maybe my memory's going.

[marksouth2000]

Are you referring to a comment he made about miriam's post being edited without the "edited at xxxx by xxxx" tag? I remember a comment once like that, but I don't remember where or when. I'm pretty sure it was Gn2 who made it though.

Yes, PG, you remember it perfectly too, it used to be at the bottom of page 4 of "miriam's" thread about the Linux filesystem being garbage. It was after miriam's long post on page 4 and before debernardis's post about gobolinux (he said to miriam, basically, if you don't like it don't complain, do something, like the gobo folk did).

So WHY did Gn2's post VANISH right after I put a link to it in this thread? (And it was there yesterday morning, but by last night it had gone.) Because SOMEONE suddenly realised that they had left evidence of forum tampering lying about, that's why.

I would suggest that everyone reads that thread in its entirety before it suffers any more tampering, especially since who "miriam" really is has a bearing on the problems the forum has been having.

Best wishes,
Mark

If you can read this I am still able to post!!!!

[Sage]

Friends on this board will be well aware that I try to avoid any threads with posting from anyone beginning with an 'F'; sometimes it's difficult. John is such a generous-hearted guy he is loathe to remove anyone from his board, no matter how many complaints he receives or threats he reads. Indeed, it is to his eternal credit that he has introduced a section that permits rants on political, religious, racial (haven't had any of those, yet!) and the suchlike, in contradistinction to the closed-minded bigots we observe from certain large nations. Dissent and discussion, however heated, strengthens the breed; only those of uncertain convictions need worry.
Personally, I don't get intimated by jerks too easily. At my great age, I see them for what they are. Some will already be aware that my presence here has already been called into question by one SOB.

What I want to know, however, is just where is the good-natured, massively talented friend who goes by the handle Gn2.

He may have broad shoulders, but here is a man who deserves a written, public apology for the abuse heaped on him from one quarter and a begging PM from John that he return here post haste. The first letter of his contributions transcend entire offerings from some who hang around. And whilst we are at it, as a retired academic, I am really well acquainted with paraphrased plagiarism culled from textual input further up the page. This, John, really does need to be terminated; you have to read a lot of offerings very closely to spot what's going on and we appreciate you don't have time for this - but you could focus on just one contributor and save yourself some trouble. Put your trust in those who've been there and got the T-shirt. Mark S and Gn2 are two such who deserve solid respect.

So there you go, folks. Take it or leave it. I do not propose to take any further part in this thread. Too busy with more worthwhile pursuits.
But, please John, persuade the illustrious Gn2 to return - we need his input.

[JohnMurga]

I also recall that, when you last asked for suggestions for new moderators, two other regulars here suggested my name (without actually asking me in advance, the cheeky sods!) and you rejected the suggestion out of hand on the grounds that I was mentally unstable, remember? And you concluded that from the fact that I had told you before that posts had been deleted. You're free to do what you like with the forum. It's yours. But you still can't reach the right conclusions by faulty reasoning, or by ignoring the facts.

Several parts of what you just said are not true ... And you know it.

I said someone was Mentally unstable ??

I don't think so ... Maybe you are confusing me with someone else.

As for moderators ...
I didn't think you where the right choice, and my decision has been proved right.

I did select other people ... Haven't had any problems.

I'm sorry if you don't take rejection well.

PS To all the many friends I have made here, goodbye. I expect that this is the last posting I will ever be able to make, even if it lasts longer than a few minutes.

It wasn't ... Was it ...

Have I EVER banned anyone out-of-hand ?

But what am I supposed to do when someone's every-other-post seems destined to insult or discredit ?

Actually ... If I look at your recent posts it isn't even every-other-one is it ??

For what you've said about me and trying to discredit the forum through miss-information you have your first warning.

Mark S and Gn2 are two such who deserve solid respect.

After reading this this thread I fail to see that ...

You earn respect, and right now mark for one is doing the opposite.

Will you ever get off your Flash hobby-horse ?
He's contributed a lot more to this forum than You, Mark and Gn2 put together, and doesn't have the need to throw his toys around every 5 minutes.

More importantly I trust his judgement.

As for Gn2 ... I don't think he's gone anywhere.

Need any MORE proof, John?

Yeah, kinda ... I need to find a good audit trail phpbb add-on or something (so I can have MORE fun chasing up this kinda crap) ...

Cheers
JohnM

[SnowDog]

re: Forum Improvement Suggestions.

John M, forgive my ignorance but I haven't had time to keep up with all of this.
My basic understanding of the situation is that:
You created, mostly maintain and more or less fund the operation of this forum? (P.S., thanks for that, it has helped me a lot)

If the preceding is semi-accurate, then it seems to me that in and of itself, this type of privatized arrangement of a perceived public forum, immediately begs for the sort of trouble that is being bickered about in this and other threads.

Would it be out of the question to do something like this?
Raise money for the hosting, transfer, etc., required, to host such a site, including all applicable costs.
Ask the puplet/flavor/distro/etc. makers to do one or another of:

Heavily advertise (including links built into the puplet), the fact that their distro is either un-supported, supported via e-mail, their own forum, etc.
"or"...
Ask them for a donation toward the whole thing, perhaps proportionate to their traffic?

Hold a public meeting of sorts, (advertised well in advance) and elect moderators and maintainers in a democratic way.

There's little doubt in my mind that there will always be disgruntled members, trolls, power-trippers, etc., in any such arrangement. So, this is certainly not intended or presumed to be a be all, end all solution, but I think it would give members an opportunity to feel that they had a hand in something they are interested in, (either by way of their financial support, time, effort, vote, etc.) and put an end to these accusations and responses and more accusations, etc.

Studies tell us that out of any and every two or more human beings put together for any length of time, there will emerge one dominant personality.

In closing, I'd like to publicly pledge $100 as a small token to get the ball rolling, in case anyone thinks something like this might be a good idea.

Also, I'd like to say thanks to all who have contributed to making Puppy (and all it's derivatives), work for us end users. (Even, and maybe especially, you lippy, opinionated, zero tolerance characters, (Yes you Mark, Sage, Gn2). Your total combined efforts may not equal the efforts of even one "real guru", but all of you have at one time or other taken time to help me personally).

Cheers

[SnowDog]

Well I'll be jiggered.

I guess I'm going blind in my old age, because I was damn sure that the topic was asking for suggestions to improve the forum.

I made a suggestion. Then for good measure, I said thank you to three members who have helped alot of people here. (I guess that was my un-doing), because I got spam-bucketed into this pissing contest sub-thread.

Thanks for the memory.

[Pizzasgood]

It probably just got the "lump treatment". Stuff blends together sometimes, and the majority of the posts were following this topic. Subject-wise, it fits with this better than the next most recent topic in that thread (separate area for derivatives). It references the troubles discussed in this tread. So, John probably saw it as part of this, rather than realizing it was intended as a new "suggestion for forum improvement".

In short, I don't think he was trying to equate your post with the above arguments.

Personally, I'm all for staying. I think a more democratic setup would just add unnecessary complications, popularity contests, and politics. Considering this is just a forum, the current approach seems more appropriate to me.

Nothing stopping you from starting your own though. It would take some of the load off this one. It might cause splitting at first, but as Puppy gets bigger I think such things will happen anyway. Otherwise this place would wind up becoming a big noisy room, where posts fall off the page within an hour.



As to Gn2, maybe he just got tired of the forums, or went on vacation. I've considered abandoning the forum several times myself. Not because I got fed up with anyone, but because it takes so much time. I'm seriously considering leaving for Barry's developer forum just so I can have more time to code. On the other hand, I might just confine myself to the new "projects" and "derivatives" sections here. If I only venture out of them occasionally, I could save myself oodles of time.