How to install Bionicpup64 8.0 on UEFI?

[mikeslr]

I tend to get the various 'Grubs' muddled up

That's because, like me, you don't spend enough time grubbing around in the technical compost box.

[hikohan]

just install xenialpup64 7.5 EFI on x524ur with grub4dos successfully via bigpup's guide.

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 678d890dd6

press F2 to BIOS menu.

#1
false security boot.

#2
false GPT device support of USB.(this hang boot splash if mouse plugged)

#3
create partion with GPART, create as msdos

#4
install a frugal install to disk, finish with grub4dos MBR config.

Enjoy Puppy Linux!

[3guesses]

@ 3guesses:-

Y'know, there's very little mileage in getting mad at forum members. I sense you're pretty frustrated by this, but the maintenance of GRUB2 is absolutely nothing to do with the Puppy community. Like so many other distros out there, all we do is make use of freely available GNU tools. On occasion they get modified, it's true, but that's beyond the purview of most of us here.

But I can certainly understand where you're coming from, because the difference between the svelte, relatively lean 'ease-of-use' of Grub4DOS, and the bloated, overly-complex nature of its offspring is like the difference 'twixt chalk & cheese. It's a gulf as wide as the Grand Canyon.....


Mike.

I'm pretty laid-back, but 2 things are pretty much guaranteed to elicit a sharp response: (1) being told I am wrong when I am not, (2) statements being made as if they were facts when the person making the statement does not actually know whether or not they are facts, especially when it turns out that the statements are wrong. I have not been active on this forum for long, but I have come across the latter quite a few times and on some of which occasions my time has been wasted quite considerably.

If I do not know something to be a fact then I am very careful to make that clear by qualifying my statement with "I think" or somesuch. I don't consider it a sign of weakness, nor do I consider it a sign of weakness to admit when I am wrong. I don't like having to correct people but I keep finding myself having to do it. And I really don't like having my time wasted.

I appreciate that Grub2 is not the purview of the Puppy community, but that was the subject being discussed here and it was pertinent because the subject of the thread was the installation of Puppy.

[3guesses]

... and the bloated, overly-complex nature of its offspring...

Just to be clear, GRUB2 is not the offspring of Grub4Dos - it is the next generation of "legacy" GRUB 0.97.

In "legacy" GRUB, you could NOT boot an ISO using a command like "chainloader (0xff)". This is a feature of Grub4Dos.

Thank you for the clarification. As I have said previously, I am not particularly au fait with grub and especially not Grub2 - my experience is primarily with grub4dos. My statements re legacy grub having the capacity to chainload ISOs was based on the Gentoo wiki page. Which I both linked and quoted. And which nobody corrected.

[3guesses]

just install xenialpup64 7.5 EFI on x524ur with grub4dos successfully via bigpup's guide.

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 678d890dd6

press F2 to BIOS menu.

#1
false security boot.

#2
false GPT device support of USB.(this hang boot splash if mouse plugged)

#3
create partion with GPART, create as msdos

#4
install a frugal install to disk, finish with grub4dos MBR config.

Enjoy Puppy Linux!

If the T100TA supported legacy (MBR/BIOS/CSM) boot I too would be able to boot it using grub4dos and this thread would never have existed...

[hikohan]

read my post, there is no legacy boot item in x542ur too.

Recently new NB/PC only support EFI GPT boot.

read the post of `bigpup` wrote carefully, it helps my problem as you met.

Good luck.

[mikeslr]

As I have said previously, I am not particularly au fait with grub and especially not Grub2 - my experience is primarily with grub4dos. My statements re legacy grub having the capacity to chainload ISOs was based on the Gentoo wiki page. Which I both linked and quoted. And which nobody corrected.

Maybe because the statement on the Gentoo page is irrelevant: cf. Grub2 config menuentries here, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 727#818727 such as:

menuentry "Start Fatdog64-631.iso" {
loopback loop0 (hd0,msdos1)/Fatdog64-631.iso
linux (loop0)/vmlinuz
initrd (loop0)/initrd
}

The relevant inquiry is how to boot your Puppy; not how to get a particular boot method to work.

foxpup "To be honest, I do not care for booting nor chainloading an iso.
I do not care about iso nor img neither.
I just unpack and do a frugal install.
And it is mostly easy to add an entry to boot a frugal install."

+1

[3guesses]

As I have said previously, I am not particularly au fait with grub and especially not Grub2 - my experience is primarily with grub4dos. My statements re legacy grub having the capacity to chainload ISOs was based on the Gentoo wiki page. Which I both linked and quoted. And which nobody corrected.

Maybe because the statement on the Gentoo page is irrelevant: cf. Grub2 config menuentries here, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 727#818727 such as:

*SIGH* My post was in response to @rcrsn51 pointing out that legacy grub does not support chainloading ISO images, DIRECTLY CONTRADICTING WHAT THE GENTOO WIKI PAGE STATES:

The new ISO (or loop) chainload mechanism makes chainloading a breeze. It is possible to chainload ISO images (LiveCD/DVDs) with GRUB Legacy

More time wasted on another needless post correcting another incorrect statement. I'm guessing it's Groundhog Day. Again.

[3guesses]

foxpup "To be honest, I do not care for booting nor chainloading an iso.
I do not care about iso nor img neither.
I just unpack and do a frugal install.
And it is mostly easy to add an entry to boot a frugal install."

+1

That rather begs the question: why are you posting on this thread?

For some reason the word "trolling" comes to mind.

[3guesses]

read my post, there is no legacy boot item in x542ur too.

Recently new NB/PC only support EFI GPT boot.

read the post of `bigpup` wrote carefully, it helps my problem as you met.

Good luck.

Again, PC booting is not my area of expertise but from what I have learned over the past couple of weeks I am pretty sure grub4dos does not support EFI or GPT so you can't use it on a UEFI/GPT system - to quote @bigpup from the thread you referenced:

Grub4dos will not work on a GPT partition table setup.

If you have re-created the partition table on your hardrive using the msdos schema (as instructed in that thread)*, I'm guessing that the BIOS is probably clever enough to realise that it needs to boot using legacy mode not UEFI. But that's just my guess, and it's based on assumptions because you have not described exactly what steps you took.

* I do not currently have the luxury of recreating the partition table on my T100TA to use the msdos schema.

[rcrsn51]

*SIGH* My post was in response to @rcrsn51 pointing out that legacy grub does not support chainloading ISO images, DIRECTLY CONTRADICTING WHAT THE GENTOO WIKI PAGE STATES:

The new ISO (or loop) chainload mechanism makes chainloading a breeze. It is possible to chainload ISO images (LiveCD/DVDs) with GRUB Legacy

More time wasted on another needless post correcting another incorrect statement. I'm guessing it's Groundhog Day. Again.

Read my post again, then look at the examples provided by Gentoo. Gentoo is conflating "chainloading" with "loop-mounting".

While the loop-mounting technique might have booted some ISO's in Grub 0.97, it didn't work with Puppy. It was Grub4Dos with its additional functionality that made this possible.

[3guesses]

*SIGH* My post was in response to @rcrsn51 pointing out that legacy grub does not support chainloading ISO images, DIRECTLY CONTRADICTING WHAT THE GENTOO WIKI PAGE STATES:

The new ISO (or loop) chainload mechanism makes chainloading a breeze. It is possible to chainload ISO images (LiveCD/DVDs) with GRUB Legacy

More time wasted on another needless post correcting another incorrect statement. I'm guessing it's Groundhog Day. Again.

Read my post again, then look at the examples provided by Gentoo. Gentoo is conflating "chainloading" with "loop-mounting".

While the loop-mounting technique might have booted some ISO's in Grub 0.97, it didn't work with Puppy. It was Grub4Dos with its additional functionality that made this possible.

So, to clarify:

- grub4dos implemented ISO-chainloading functionality
- legacy grub implemented only a limited emulation of ISO-chainloading via loop-mounting
- Grub2 provides some emulation of ISO-chainloading via loop-mounting, but does also provide ISO-chainloading functionality in some circumstances, eg:

Chainloading the TrueCrypt bootloader on a separate disk is relatively simple and can be done in GRUB2 like any other bootloader:
FILE /etc/grub.d/40_customChainloading TrueCrypt bootloader on a separate disk

Code: Select all

title Windows7-TrueCrypt-BIOS/MBR
find --set-root /truecrypt_rescue_image.iso
map --mem /truecrypt_rescue_image.iso (hd32)
map (hd0) (hd1)
map (hd1) (hd0)
map --hook
root (hd32)
chainloader (hd32)

Have I understood correctly now?

[mikeslr]

Sorry, 3guesses, for putting my 2 cents in. I hadn't realized how far this thread has meandered from the original problem you first reported until I attempted to reconstruct what we now know.

[foxpup]

Sorry, 3guesses, for putting my 2 cents in. I hadn't realized how far this thread has meandered from the original problem you first reported until I attempted to reconstruct what we now know.

I had the same reaction.
First I thought 3guesses had hijacked his own thread, that it was about booting a Puppy from an emmc, frugal install.
I had to read the first post again to realise it was first about booting (edit: looping?) the iso.

[rcrsn51]

"Loop-mounting" and "chainloading" are two different things.

Loop-mounting is the ability to mount the ISO and expose the files inside, like vmlinuz and initrd.gz. You can then "run" them with regular GRUB commands. Gentoo has examples of this.

Looking back, I'm not sure if GRUB 0.97 was ever capable of loop-mounting an ISO. That may have first appeared with GRUB2. Grub4Dos can do this with some "map" commands. This is how ISObooter works.

Chainloading is the ability to locate the boot code inside the ISO (which makes the ISO bootable when you burn it to a physical disc) and transfer execution to that code. This emulates booting the physical disc and eliminates the need for specific GRUB commands.

GRUB 0.97 WAS capable of limited chainloading. That's how it could dual-boot Windows - by chainloading the boot code in the Windows partition boot sector.

ISObooter/Grub4Dos gives you the choice of booting a USB drive either way - by chainloading the ISO or by using the GRUB code for a frugal install.

But ISObooter ONLY works with a conventional MBR-structured drive. I have found no way of extending it to the UEFI framework.

If you are working in a UEFI environment and want to boot a new ISO, here are some choices:
1. Burn it to a physical disc.
2. Write it to a flash drive with dd.
3. Find the OS-specific GRUB2 boot code and add it to a GRUB2 menu.

Whether these actually work will depend on how you (or the ISO) handle Secure Boot.

[3guesses]

"Loop-mounting" and "chainloading" are two different things.

Loop-mounting is the ability to mount the ISO and expose the files inside, like vmlinuz and initrd.gz. You can then "run" them with regular GRUB commands. Gentoo has examples of this.

Looking back, I'm not sure if GRUB 0.97 was ever capable of loop-mounting an ISO. That may have first appeared with GRUB2. Grub4Dos can do this with some "map" commands. This is how ISObooter works.

Chainloading is the ability to locate the boot code inside the ISO (which makes the ISO bootable when you burn it to a physical disc) and transfer execution to that code. This emulates booting the physical disc and eliminates the need for specific GRUB commands.

Thanks. Yes, that is what I was trying to describe. When I said "legacy grub implemented only a limited emulation of ISO-chainloading via loop-mounting" I should have said something like "limited booting of the code in the ISO via loop-mounting".

GRUB 0.97 WAS capable of limited chainloading. That's how it could dual-boot Windows - by chainloading the boot code in the Windows partition boot sector.

I thought legacy grub could also dual-boot Windows by directly chainloading /ntldr (for example)?

ISObooter/Grub4Dos gives you the choice of booting a USB drive either way - by chainloading the ISO or by using the GRUB code for a frugal install.

But ISObooter ONLY works with a conventional MBR-structured drive. I have found no way of extending it to the UEFI framework.

If you are working in a UEFI environment and want to boot a new ISO, here are some choices:
1. Burn it to a physical disc.
2. Write it to a flash drive with dd.
3. Find the OS-specific GRUB2 boot code and add it to a GRUB2 menu.

Whether these actually work will depend on how you (or the ISO) handle Secure Boot.

This is the point I've been trying to make - that the ISO is a self-contained system with all the information and code needed for it to effectively boot itself (via chainloading). Mounting it (via loop-mounting) and then trying to boot the code in there is effectively reinventing the wheel and requires a proprietary solution for each ISO - not a good, reliable nor sustainable approach IMO. This is why I am strongly advocating that (a) grub4dos be developed to include UEFI and GPT support, or (b) Grub2 be developed to support ISO-chainloading (a la grub4dos), or (c) rEFInd be developed to support ISO-chainloading.

But what about the truecrypt_rescue_image.iso example I quoted from the Gentoo wiki? That looks to my untrained eye as though it IS chainloading the ISO - and effectively doing so in the same way that grub4dos does it?

[rcrsn51]

I thought legacy grub could also dual-boot Windows by directly chainloading /ntldr (for example)?

IIRC, that first became possible with Grub4Dos. In any case, GRUB 0.97 could never have done it if ntldr was in an NTFS partition, which 0.97 could NOT read.

But what about the truecrypt_rescue_image.iso example I quoted from the Gentoo wiki? That looks to my untrained eye as though it IS chainloading the ISO - and effectively doing so in the same way that grub4dos does it?

This would be easy to test. Just replace the ISO name with a Puppy. But notice that this example refers to "separate disks".

Also, the example is written in legacy GRUB format even though they claim to be using GRUB2. Which leads me to wonder if they really know what they are talking about.

And notice this: The only Gentoo example that references EFI is specifically for dual-booting Windows via a chainload operation. They do NOT show an example for chainloading something else under EFI.

[3guesses]

read my post, there is no legacy boot item in x542ur too.

Recently new NB/PC only support EFI GPT boot.

read the post of `bigpup` wrote carefully, it helps my problem as you met.

Good luck.

Again, PC booting is not my area of expertise but from what I have learned over the past couple of weeks I am pretty sure grub4dos does not support EFI or GPT so you can't use it on a UEFI/GPT system - to quote @bigpup from the thread you referenced:

Grub4dos will not work on a GPT partition table setup.

If you have re-created the partition table on your hardrive using the msdos schema (as instructed in that thread)*, I'm guessing that the BIOS is probably clever enough to realise that it needs to boot using legacy mode not UEFI. But that's just my guess, and it's based on assumptions because you have not described exactly what steps you took.

* I do not currently have the luxury of recreating the partition table on my T100TA to use the msdos schema.

I have just been reading up about Easy2Boot which purports now to offer UEFI booting of ISOs from USB (see https://rmprepusb.blogspot.com/2015/07/ ... stems.html and http://www.easy2boot.com), but it would appear that this feature is only possible when legacy/CSM booting - because grub4dos does not support UEFI:

Easy2Boot uses grub4dos. Grub4dos contains code that will only run from a IBM-compatible BIOS - it is not compatible with UEFI booting because there is no BIOS interrupt support from UEFI and the CPU is in a completely different mode.

So I am still sceptical of @hikohan's previous claims.

[3guesses]

I thought legacy grub could also dual-boot Windows by directly chainloading /ntldr (for example)?

IIRC, that first became possible with Grub4Dos. In any case, GRUB 0.97 could never have done it if ntldr was in an NTFS partition, which 0.97 could NOT read.

Good point (re legacy grub not having NTFS support).

But what about the truecrypt_rescue_image.iso example I quoted from the Gentoo wiki? That looks to my untrained eye as though it IS chainloading the ISO - and effectively doing so in the same way that grub4dos does it?

This would be easy to test. Just replace the ISO name with a Puppy. But notice that this example refers to "separate disks".

Also, the example is written in legacy GRUB format even though they claim to be using GRUB2. Which leads me to wonder if they really know what they are talking about.

And notice this: The only Gentoo example that references EFI is specifically for dual-booting Windows via a chainload operation. They do NOT show an example for chainloading something else under EFI.

I plan to have a look at this when I get a chance

[rcrsn51]

Based on my personal experience ONLY, here a summary of chainloading:

1. GRUB 0.97: chainload to a partition boot sector
2. Grub4Dos: chainload to a PBS or a file (like /ntldr) or an ISO bootloader
3. BIOS+GRUB2: chainload to a partition boot sector
4. UEFI+GRUB2: ONLY chainload to a .efi file (like Windows)

By "chainloading", I mean using a chainloader-type command. I am NOT referring to some kind of loop-mounting procedure.