memory footprint v3.00 frugal installation

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alienjeff
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memory footprint v3.00 frugal installation

#1 Post by alienjeff »

Updated kernel release, Xorg 800x600x24 resolution - Here's what "free" reports with only rxvt opened from the desktop:

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# free
                      total         used              free       shared      buffers
Mem:         254956       223688         31268            0        19028
Swap:        329292            0            329292
Total:         584248       223688       360560
This is a significant increase in footprint size from earlier versions and doesn't leave much wiggle room before having to contend with the dreaded swap thrashing.
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Bahurim
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Re: memory footprint v3.00 frugal installation

#2 Post by Bahurim »

alienjeff wrote:This is a significant increase in footprint size from earlier versions and doesn't leave much wiggle room before having to contend with the dreaded swap thrashing.
Would you mind quantifying? I'm curious just how significant this increase is. Conjecture on why?

EDIT: Is this a bug?
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alienjeff
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#3 Post by alienjeff »

@Bahurim:

Quantify? Sure! The following is what "free" reports from a frugal installation of the v2.12-seamonkey.iso, using Xorg @ 1024x768x24 with the initial Dillo welcome/help pop-up and rxvt running:

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sh-3.00# free
                    total           used           free         shared     buffers
 Mem:       254996       154432       100564            0        19096
Swap:       329292            0           329292
Total:        584288       154432       429856
So the memory footprint, derived from the "used" data of "free" shows that v3.00 uses 69236K more memory than v2.12 running on the same machine and virtually identical parameters. If anything, v2.12 was running a wee bit heavier than v3.00.

This 44.83% increase in the size of the memory footprint is certainly worthy of note, and hence my post. Whether this is a bug or not is for someone with a more intimate knowledge of Puppy than I have. If it's not a bug, it should be! ;)
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SirDuncan
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#4 Post by SirDuncan »

My 2.17 frugal install with Java, OO, and the devx modules uses 295320 with Firefox running. That's not much higher than what 3.00 was using out of the box for you. I'd say that something is awry (not with you, but with 3.00). Seems to be another small reason to primarily stick with 2.17 for a while longer.
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PaulBx1
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#5 Post by PaulBx1 »

Is there an application that shows more in detail what apps are using what memory? ps maybe, but doesn't show the kernel. Anyway it would be nice to see who is the guilty party. Compare between the two versions...

Here is what 2.16.1 gives, xorg 1024x768, using a pupsave, rxvt window only, after a reboot:

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~ >free
              total         used         free       shared      buffers
  Mem:       320844        97764       223080            0        15372
 Swap:            0            0            0
Total:       320844        97764       223080
~ >
Why is my memory used so much smaller? Is it because I'm booting off CD?
Last edited by PaulBx1 on Wed 10 Oct 2007, 03:32, edited 1 time in total.
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alienjeff
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#6 Post by alienjeff »

@PaulBx1: My guess is that yours is a full installation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

@SirDuncan: There's plenty awry with me. ;)

@gang:

"top" from the command line, or "KP manage running processes" for the cli-phobic/GUI-addicted, will both give that info. If I end up being able to stay awake a while longer, I'll get that info for both of my previous setups and post the results.

iirc, it was Xorg that was the hog in v3.00 ... 29.6% of either memory or CPU usage seems to have stuck in my head, but I'll get more info later.

Thanks for the interest, folks.
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#7 Post by PaulBx1 »

Here's "top" followed by "ps". Again, after a reboot, with only an rxvt window:

Code: Select all

Mem: 98480K used, 222364K free, 0K shrd, 15396K buff, 58944K cached
Load average: 0.05, 0.10, 0.04    (State: S=sleeping R=running, W=waiting)

  PID USER     STATUS   RSS  PPID %CPU %MEM COMMAND
 3242 root     S       7588     1  0.0  2.3 ROX-Filer
 3197 root     S <     6560  3196  0.0  2.0 X
 3258 root     S       4288     1  0.0  1.3 mini-volume.tcl
 3250 root     S       4060  3248  0.0  1.2 glipper
 3209 root     S       2632  3196  0.0  0.8 jwm
 3260 root     S       2044     1  0.0  0.6 blinky
 3256 root     S       2004     1  0.0  0.6 freememapplet
 3301 root     S       1788  3300  0.0  0.5 bash
 3254 root     S       1712     1  0.0  0.5 xload
 3212 root     S       1452  3209  0.0  0.4 autocutsel
 3073 root     S       1436     1  0.0  0.4 xwin
 3300 root     S       1300  3242  0.0  0.4 rxvt
 3418 root     R        844  3301  0.0  0.2 top
 3196 root     S        644  3073  0.0  0.2 xinit
 3248 root     S        628  3209  0.0  0.1 .xinitrc
 3068 root     S        588     1  0.0  0.1 crond
    1 root     S        540     0  0.0  0.1 busybox
 2292 root     S        532     1  0.0  0.1 cardmgr
 2331 root     S        464     1  0.0  0.1 syslogd
 3074 root     S        444     1  0.0  0.1 getty
 2333 root     S        444     1  0.0  0.1 klogd
 2630 root     S        192     1  0.0  0.0 dhcpcd
 1561 root     SW<        0     1  0.0  0.0 loop1
 1535 root     SW<        0     1  0.0  0.0 loop0
   93 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 kseriod
 3243 root     Z          0  3209  0.0  0.0 delayedrun
    5 root     SW<        0     1  0.0  0.0 khelper
 2068 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 kgameportd
    2 root     SWN        0     1  0.0  0.0 ksoftirqd/0
    3 root     SW         0     1  0.0  0.0 watchdog/0
    4 root     SW<        0     1  0.0  0.0 events/0
    6 root     SW<        0     1  0.0  0.0 kthread
    9 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 kblockd/0
   10 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 kacpid
  136 root     SW         0     6  0.0  0.0 pdflush
  137 root     SW         0     6  0.0  0.0 pdflush
  138 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 kswapd0
  139 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 aio/0
  795 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 ata/0
  796 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 ata_aux
~ >
~ >ps
  PID  Uid     VmSize Stat Command
    1 root        540 S   init              
    2 root            SWN [ksoftirqd/0]
    3 root            SW  [watchdog/0]
    4 root            SW< [events/0]
    5 root            SW< [khelper]
    6 root            SW< [kthread]
    9 root            SW< [kblockd/0]
   10 root            SW< [kacpid]
   93 root            SW< [kseriod]
  136 root            SW  [pdflush]
  137 root            SW  [pdflush]
  138 root            SW< [kswapd0]
  139 root            SW< [aio/0]
  795 root            SW< [ata/0]
  796 root            SW< [ata_aux]
  820 root            SW< [kpsmoused]
  901 root            SW< [khubd]
 1535 root            SW< [loop0]
 1561 root            SW< [loop1]
 1911 root            SW< [pccardd]
 1917 root            SW< [pccardd]
 2068 root            SW< [kgameportd]
 2292 root        532 S   /sbin/cardmgr 
 2331 root        464 S   syslogd -m 0 
 2333 root        444 S   klogd 
 2630 root        192 S   dhcpcd eth0 
 3068 root        588 S   crond 
 3073 root       1436 S   /bin/sh /usr/X11R7/bin/xwin 
 3074 root        444 S   /sbin/getty 38400 tty2 
 3196 root        644 S   /usr/X11R7/bin/xinit /root/.xinitrc -- -br -nolisten tcp 
 3197 root       6560 S < X :0 -br -nolisten tcp 
 3209 root       2632 S   jwm 
 3212 root       1452 S   /usr/bin/autocutsel 
 3242 root       7588 S   /usr/local/apps/ROX-Filer/ROX-Filer -o -p /root/Choices/ROX-Filer/PuppyPin 
 3243 root            Z   [delayedrun]
 3248 root        628 S   /bin/sh /root/.xinitrc 
 3250 root       4060 S   glipper 
 3254 root       1712 S   xload -nolabel -bg #BCBAB5 -fg red -hl white 
 3256 root       2004 S   freememapplet 
 3258 root       4288 S   /usr/bin/tclsh /usr/sbin/mini-volume.tcl -bg gray90 -mixer pvolume-mixer.tcl 
 3260 root       2044 S   blinky -bg gray90 
 3300 root       1312 S   /usr/bin/rxvt 
 3301 root       1788 S   bash 
 3445 root       1320 R   /bin/sh /bin/ps 
 3446 root        744 R   ps         
~ >
Getting into seamonkey gobbles another 100,000k of memory :roll: This still doesn't show what the kernel uses, and remember the ramdisks (two in 3.00) and that shmfs thing, whatever that is (see partview).
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alienjeff
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#8 Post by alienjeff »

Interesting. Your thoughts?

"top" report on v2.12

Code: Select all

Mem: 154764K used, 100232K free, 0K shrd, 19096K buff, 103888K cached
Load average: 0.80, 0.46, 0.18    (State: S=sleeping R=running, W=waiting)

  PID USER     STATUS   RSS  PPID %CPU %MEM COMMAND
12377 root     S       1268 12250  0.5  0.4 rxvt
12197 root     S <     8448 12196  0.3  3.3 X
12414 root     R        848 12378  0.1  0.3 top
12279 root     S       5100     1  0.0  2.0 dillo
12334 root     S       5100 12279  0.0  2.0 dillo
12250 root     S       4036     1  0.0  1.5 ROX-Filer
12257 root     S       3848     1  0.0  1.5 wish
12209 root     S       2500 12196  0.0  0.9 jwm
12261 root     S       2024     1  0.0  0.7 blinky
12259 root     S       2004     1  0.0  0.7 freememapplet
12255 root     S       1704     1  0.0  0.6 xload
12378 root     S       1664 12377  0.0  0.6 sh
12212 root     S       1444 12209  0.0  0.5 autocutsel
 4049 root     S       1428     1  0.0  0.5 xwin
12293 root     S       1416 12279  0.0  0.5 dpid
12335 root     S       1280 12293  0.0  0.5 file.dpi
12336 root     S       1280 12335  0.0  0.5 file.dpi
 4041 root     S N     1104     1  0.0  0.4 savepuppyd
12196 root     S        648  4049  0.0  0.2 xinit
    1 root     S        544     0  0.0  0.2 busybox
 2814 root     S        464     1  0.0  0.1 syslogd
 4050 root     S        448     1  0.0  0.1 getty
 2816 root     S        444     1  0.0  0.1 klogd
 4044 root     S N      372  4041  0.0  0.1 sleep
 1082 root     SW<        0     1  0.0  0.0 loop0
    5 root     SW<        0     1  0.0  0.0 khelper
12214 root     Z          0 12209  0.0  0.0 puppybackground
12251 root     Z          0 12209  0.0  0.0 delayedrun
    2 root     SWN        0     1  0.0  0.0 ksoftirqd/0
   29 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 kseriod
    4 root     SW<        0     1  0.0  0.0 events/0
    3 root     SW         0     1  0.0  0.0 watchdog/0
    6 root     SW<        0     1  0.0  0.0 kthread
    9 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 kblockd/0
   83 root     SW         0     6  0.0  0.0 pdflush
   84 root     SW         0     6  0.0  0.0 pdflush
   85 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 kswapd0
   86 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 aio/0
  745 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 ata/0
  746 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 ata_aux
  770 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 kpsmoused
  822 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 khubd
12352 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 scsi_eh_0
12353 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 usb-storage
"top" report on v3.00

Code: Select all

Mem: 235924K used, 19032K free, 0K shrd, 21044K buff, 169612K cached
Load average: 0.40 0.19 0.07
  PID USER     STATUS   VSZ  PPID %CPU %MEM COMMAND
 5541 root     SW<    74828  5540  0.6 29.2 X
 5638 root     SW      3296  5577  0.1  1.2 rxvt
 5697 root     RW       680  5639  0.1  0.2 top
 5577 root     SW     14980     1  0.0  5.8 ROX-Filer
 5591 root     SW      7144     1  0.0  2.7 mini-volume.tcl
 5071 root     SW      5168     1  0.0  2.0 cupsd
 5553 root     SW      4976  5540  0.0  1.9 jwm
 5593 root     SW      4508     1  0.0  1.7 blinky
 5589 root     SW      4396     1  0.0  1.7 freememapplet
 5587 root     SW      4128     1  0.0  1.6 xload
 5556 root     SW      3724  5553  0.0  1.4 autocutsel
 5639 root     SW      3152  5638  0.0  1.2 bash
 5310 root     SW      3012     1  0.0  1.1 xwin
 5540 root     SW      2728  5310  0.0  1.0 xinit
 5296 messagebus SW      2096     1  0.0  0.8 dbus-daemon
 5311 root     SW       684     1  0.0  0.2 getty
    1 root     SW       680     0  0.0  0.2 init
 3692 root     SW       680     1  0.0  0.2 syslogd
 3694 root     SW       672     1  0.0  0.2 klogd
 1573 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 loop0
 5582 root     Z          0  5553  0.0  0.0 delayedrun
    5 root     SW<        0     1  0.0  0.0 khelper
   58 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 kseriod
    3 root     SW         0     1  0.0  0.0 watchdog/0
    4 root     SW<        0     1  0.0  0.0 events/0
   57 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 ata_aux
    6 root     SW<        0     1  0.0  0.0 kthread
   36 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 kblockd/0
  837 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 ksuspend_usbd
  840 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 khubd
  875 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 scsi_eh_0
    2 root     SWN        0     1  0.0  0.0 ksoftirqd/0
  890 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 unionfs_siod/0
   56 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 ata/0
 3657 root     SW<        0     6  0.0  0.0 kapmd
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HairyWill
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#9 Post by HairyWill »

I bring questions not answers.
Is the discrepancy caused by shmfs?
Initial frugal boot 3.00 without pupsave

Code: Select all

               total         used         free       shared      buffers
  Mem:       507236       204552       302684            0        20604
 Swap:      1180736            0      1180736
Total:      1687972       204552      1483420
subsequent frugal boot with pup_save

Code: Select all

              total         used         free       shared      buffers
  Mem:       507236       302952       204284            0        20016
 Swap:      1180736            0      1180736
Total:      1687972       302952      1385020
top output

Code: Select all

Mem: 444356K used, 62880K free, 0K shrd, 33408K buff, 337088K cached
Load average: 0.11 0.09 0.03
  PID USER     STATUS   VSZ  PPID %CPU %MEM COMMAND
13007 root     SW      135M 13002 10.1 27.3 seamonkey-bin
12079 root     SW      4508     1  0.6  0.8 blinky
12041 root     SW      3720 12038  0.5  0.7 autocutsel
12026 root     SW<     140M 12025  0.3 28.3 X
I wonder if one of these tools is lying
top says 444,356K used, seamonkey using 27% of this and X using 28%
I've only got a few forum posts open in seamonkey, I find it hard to believe that they are each using over 100MB.

According to partview
shmfs used:0 free:82 MB
ramdisk:/tmp used:0 free: 638 MB

I presume that 82 MB is counting against the 444,356 KB showing as used.

also

Code: Select all

# mount
rootfs on / type rootfs (rw)
/dev/hda2 on /initrd/mnt/dev_save type ext2 (rw,noatime)
/dev/loop1 on /initrd/pup_rw type ext2 (rw,noatime)
tmpfs on /initrd/mnt/tmpfs type tmpfs (rw)
/dev/loop0 on /initrd/pup_ro2 type squashfs (ro,noatime)
unionfs on / type unionfs (rw,dirs=/initrd/pup_rw=rw:/initrd/pup_ro2=ro)
tmpfs on /tmp type tmpfs (rw)
none on /proc type proc (rw)
shmfs on /dev/shm type tmpfs (rw)
none on /dev/pts type devpts (rw)
none on /sys type sysfs (rw)
none on /proc/bus/usb type usbfs (rw)
Is tmpfs getting counted twice because it is mounted on /tmp and /initrd/mnt/tmpfs?
Does it matter, is puppy just expanding to fill available space? I don't think this is entirely the answer as you still need over 200MB RAM to get your CD drive back if you are running off it.
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trapster
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#10 Post by trapster »

deleted...
(a little lost today)...lol
trapster
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Frugal install: Slacko
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PaulBx1
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#11 Post by PaulBx1 »

According to partview
shmfs used:0 free:82 MB
ramdisk:/tmp used:0 free: 638 MB
My hack of partview removed the ramdisk report for /initrd/mnt/tmpfs since I didn't think anyone would be interested. It always reported completely full. This is in line with the code removing all loop devices except loop1 (pupsave). Also, because I got 6 devices reported where 2.16 only returns 3; I was trying to get a handle on things. Anyway partview may not be the best tool for this investigation.

Keep in mind /tmp is now in ramdisk in 3.00. I believe the rationale was better performance. However if it gobbles enough memory that applications get crowded, maybe that was not such a good idea after all, and the performance would be even worse. My /tmp often has several big pdf files that I'm no longer looking at... We might nag Barry to put it back on disk, for those who have a disk anyway. I don't know where it makes sense for folks booting from flash, with no disk.

That shmfs also consumes 37MB IIRC (for Will, 82MB), for no good reason that I can tell. I haven't been able to figure out what it's used for. Is it a requirement of the new kernel, or something? We need to dump it if it's not needed.
Is tmpfs getting counted twice because it is mounted on /tmp and /initrd/mnt/tmpfs?
Well, tmpfs is a file system, not a device. 3.00 now has two ramdisks where 2.xx had one.

AJ, it looks like X went from consuming 3.3% of your memory in 2.12 to 29.2% in 3.00! :shock: ROX-filer got a lot bigger too.

Here is a link about using ps for checking memory usage:
http://virtualthreads.blogspot.com/2006 ... linux.html

BTW I don't have a full install; I always boot from CD.
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Getnikar
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#12 Post by Getnikar »

SirDuncan wrote:My 2.17 frugal install with Java, OO, and the devx modules uses 295320 with Firefox running. That's not much higher than what 3.00 was using out of the box for you.
Java, OO, and Firefox: Those are three high memory apps. You are making a pointless comparison of two completely different configurations.
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#13 Post by SirDuncan »

Getnikar wrote:Java, OO, and Firefox: Those are three high memory apps. You are making a pointless comparison of two completely different configurations.
The point was that with all those high memory apps, I only use slightly more memory than what the 3.00 install was using with just its base configuration. Think about that and let it sink in for moment. Then if you still find the comparison pointless, well, I'm not sure that I can explain it any more simply than what I already have.
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PaulBx1
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#14 Post by PaulBx1 »

I was hoping Barry would weigh in on this thread...
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Bruce B

#15 Post by Bruce B »

My computer is been up for 24 hours now. SeaMonkey is running as well as two instances of mrxvt and one instance of leafpad. I'm using 87 MB of RAM to do all this, which is typical.

I do NOT see any examples of people using free to make diagnostic decisions. You don't even have free, you have a symlink to a busy box cut down worthless simulation of the real free and the results you are getting is causing misinformation and confusion.

Yes your memory is going to increase and increase and increase some more. But why? Linux buffers and caches.

And those caches and buffers must be subtracted and I don't see this happening in these threads.

As far as SeaMonkey memory leaks, how about factoring in its memory cache? I think this is appropriate. about:cache and then see how much is in memory cache (as well as disk cache if you want).

Then calculate how much memory SeaMonkey is really using for running and how much for caching.

If you all factor in Linux's caching and SeaMonkey's caching which is very simple to do, then and only if then the math doesn't add up, consider memory leaks or other problems. Just don't overlook the very obvious.

Here is the real free output. And by the way, the real free has the -m switch (as well as other options) to display in megabytes which is used in the example below.

Code: Select all

[~] free -m 
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:          2535        990       1544          0          3        899
-/+ buffers/cache:         87       2447
Swap:          541          0        541
[~]
If anyone wants the honest to goodness free utility download it here, package put together by me.

The real thing

Sorry, for my irritation, it's based on Puppy even coming with a utility that does little more than confuse. Busybox is fine for a lot of things, but not all things and especially not as a free substitute.

I hope you enjoy the utility, because it really will help you in your diagnosis.

Put free in /bin and overwrite the symlink
Put the lib file in /lib
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Bruce B

#16 Post by Bruce B »

Sorry Barry, no offense meant. But the busybox free doesn't tell how much memory is actually being used except by including caches, it doesn't subtract Linux caches, it does lead the user to wrong conclusions and at a minimum, this must be brought to people's attention, especially when they are sincerely trying to diagnose and understand what's happening.

Bruce
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Bruce B

#17 Post by Bruce B »

While I'm at it, I'd like to share htop a top replacement. I'm sure you'll find its features and process mananment abilities far superior to top. Just put it in your path and run it in the terminal by typing htop

Also, it uses F keys and rxvt F key support is not as good as mrxvt. If someone wants mrxvt (an older but maybe more friendly version) please ask.
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