Frugal vs full install

[JonGl]

I've got a full install of Puppy 3 on my hard drive, and want to upgrade to Puppy 4. Right now, I've got a frugal install of 4 on the same hard drive (together with a weird Ubuntu mess on a separate partition) using Ubuntu's GRUB to chose between everything. However, I had installed a bunch of software in 3 that I lose if and when I upgrade to 4. (whether frugal or full).

That got me thinking. If I continue with a frugal Puppy 4, and install a bunch of software, when I upgrade that, will I lose all my software again, using the Frugal install? Or are those things saved in my save file, and will be reused with the next version? Also, how great is the risk that the software I installed will either break or be broken by the upgrade, so saying that they are kept?

I ask this, because I tried to install BibleTime on Puppy 4, and weird things happened, and I ended up tossing that save file, and starting all over again, because it seems I royally messed things up.

Any advice, or knowledge on how these things work?

Also, in the "wish" department, I wish that Puppy had a way of upgrading without having to wipe. Ubuntu's gotten pretty good at it. In fact, my Ubuntu install just went from 7.04, through 7.10 to 8.04 in one afternoon, and everything's running just fine. It would be nice if Puppy could do something.

(and for the curious, Ubuntu, even with ICEWM is really just to much of a burden on this 9 yr old Dell laptop)

Thanks in advance.
-Jon

[disciple]

Or are those things saved in my save file, and will be reused with the next version?

Yes, and they would generally work in a new version, but Puppy 4 had a lot of stuff that was in 3 taken out, so you may need to install some dependencies to make certain things work. Barry was talking about doing a basic "compatibility pack" that would make most packages from Puppy 3 work, but I'm not sure if he released it or not.

how great is the risk that the software I installed will either break or be broken by the upgrade, so saying that they are kept?

I would say very low risk that it would break the upgrade, and usually quite low risk that it would be broken, but upgrading from 3 to 4 a quite high risk that some things will be broken (until you install any dependencies you need).

I wish that Puppy had a way of upgrading without having to wipe.

It does usually.
But it sounds like you need to learn to backup your save file. Make a copy of it whenever you upgrade, or do anything else that you suspect might mess it up, and then you can either go back to the old save file, or extract things from it that you need.

[JonGl]

But it sounds like you need to learn to backup your save file. Make a copy of it whenever you upgrade, or do anything else that you suspect might mess it up, and then you can either go back to the old save file, or extract things from it that you need.

Yeah, I think I learned _that_ lesson. In fact, I've been taking it nice and slow this time. After I add something, and it works, I've been shutting down, and rebooting to make sure it works, and to save a save file. Is there another way to save these files without shutting down?

I am slowly coming to the conclusion, btw, that a frugal is better than full install.

Thanks!

-Jon

[alienjeff]

I am slowly coming to the conclusion, btw, that a frugal is better than full install.

For ease of back ups and portability? Yes. For running on lower end, RAM-challenged machines? Not necessarily so.

There are plenty of full/frugal threads, debates and holy wars on this forum if you care to delve into the topic any deeper: armor and/or asbestos optional ...

Remember the computing golden rule: back up your important data

[JonGl]

I am slowly coming to the conclusion, btw, that a frugal is better than full install.

For ease of back ups and portability? Yes. For running on lower end, RAM-challenged machines? Not necessarily so.

It's funny, but I bought this ancient Dell laptop (PII 366mhz 160meg ram) just to run Puppy one. And it runs from a frugal install just great. In fact, I don't notice any difference in use--just in boot times. I installed a frugal install on the laptop I bought my dad as well, and he's quite happy with it. (exact same model as mine). So, speed is not an issue. I'm going to run with this frugal for a while, but I think that, in the end, I'll be happy with it. Right now, I've got a gig of save space, and I hope that stays enough. The thought of resizing almost scares me.

Thanks for the help folks.

-Jon

[disciple]

Is there another way to save these files without shutting down?

Ummm - why do you shut down? Oh - to make sure it still works.
I save backups BEFORE I do something that might mess up my save file, not after.

[JonGl]

Is there another way to save these files without shutting down?

Ummm - why do you shut down? Oh - to make sure it still works.
I save backups BEFORE I do something that might mess up my save file, not after.

Well, yes, that's my question... How does one make a backup before making changes? Is it possible to make a copy of the file while the system is operating? I'm a bit leery to try that without some security I won't crash.

Right now, my plan goes thus. Add software. See if I'm save. If so, I reboot. If I were to add something that didn't sit well, my plan is to kill the computer without a proper shutdown. Am I correct in thinking that this won't save my puppy file, and my changes will be lost? I accidentely killed my computer a couple times under Puppy3, and seems to have been the result.

I'm really shooting in the dark here, and am a bit too nervous to do the "big one"--waiting for some guidance before I do it.

(One other thing I plan to do is to boot into Ubuntu, and save the pup save file from there. But surely there's a better way)

-Jon

[Pizzasgood]

With a NON-full install on Flash media, Puppy will save periodically and on reboot. On every other type of install but Multisession, Puppy will save almost immediately. There might be a slight delay, but as soon as the sync command is run or the system decides it is time, the data gets saved.

In my experiments, the act of backing up a pup_save.2fs file that is in use is perfectly safe. The issue lies in booting that backup. It's possible that data could be changed while it's being copied, which can cause issues. Also, running programs might create temporary files, and those temporary files would also be copied. Fore example, the backup will probably contain /etc/.XLOADED and /tmp/bootcnt.txt, which will prevent X from starting automatically.

So to be safe when backing up from a running system, you should close as many applications as you can. I recommend exiting to the command line if possible. Then run the sync command before copying the save file. Run sync again afterwards to make sure the copy is finished.

[JonGl]

wow! Thanks for that very clear, and complete explanation. I've been looking on the wiki and some other places, and haven't found anything this good. Thanks! I shall now proceed with my dangerous "bigone" install... Although, I might ask for help on that, too, in another thread. Thanks again!

(slowly leaving Ubuntu behind!)

With a NON-full install on Flash media, Puppy will save periodically and on reboot. On every other type of install but Multisession, Puppy will save almost immediately. There might be a slight delay, but as soon as the sync command is run or the system decides it is time, the data gets saved.

In my experiments, the act of backing up a pup_save.2fs file that is in use is perfectly safe. The issue lies in booting that backup. It's possible that data could be changed while it's being copied, which can cause issues. Also, running programs might create temporary files, and those temporary files would also be copied. Fore example, the backup will probably contain /etc/.XLOADED and /tmp/bootcnt.txt, which will prevent X from starting automatically.

So to be safe when backing up from a running system, you should close as many applications as you can. I recommend exiting to the command line if possible. Then run the sync command before copying the save file. Run sync again afterwards to make sure the copy is finished.

[disciple]

That's an excellent explanation PG. I second it.
I was wondering though, what actually is the sync command? Is it what keeps the save file on disc in sync with the save file in ram? I never use it, and I've always been able to boot from my backups OK, I just need to type xwin to get into X, and I'm away. But maybe my save files don't get loaded into ram.

[recycler]

When puppy boots up from a CD there is a five second pause. To back-up my pup save files I use the command 'puppy pfix=ram' at this point and this starts puppy without looking for or loading any pup save files. Then I mount a USB memory stick or (external/ internal) hard drive and copy my pupsave file across to it. Good to do this periodically and before any major changes!

I assume you have a linux swap file if you have ubuntu installed. Helps keep computer up to speed when RAM is limited. I have also found Ubuntu an excellent way of installing grub. Recently realised I don't have to do that though. Puppy has a grub config option and the more recent versions of puppy write the lines for grub to a temporary folder with a frugal install or set it all up for you with a full install.

[JonGl]

When puppy boots up from a CD there is a five second pause. To back-up my pup save files I use the command 'puppy pfix=ram' at this point and this starts puppy without looking for or loading any pup save files. Then I mount a USB memory stick or (external/ internal) hard drive and copy my pupsave file across to it. Good to do this periodically and before any major changes!

Thanks for that simple idea! More "tools" for the toolbox. I like options.

I assume you have a linux swap file if you have ubuntu installed. Helps keep computer up to speed when RAM is limited. I have also found Ubuntu an excellent way of installing grub. Recently realised I don't have to do that though. Puppy has a grub config option and the more recent versions of puppy write the lines for grub to a temporary folder with a frugal install or set it all up for you with a full install.

Actually, my swap partition is from my Puppy 3 install. I used Puppy to partition it with several partitions--including a swap, one for puppy and a larger one that I was going to make my /home folder, but never got around to, and ended up installing Ubuntu onto. And Ubuntu went and wiped my Puppy grub! argh. Well, it's all fixed now, and yes, I like Puppy's grub tools. In fact, coming from PowerPC and Mac, I learned a lot playing with Puppy 3 that has served me well.

-Jon

[alienjeff]

...my plan goes thus...If I were to add something that didn't sit well, my plan is to kill the computer without a proper shutdown.

Bad plan. UPS manufacturers agree.

[SirDuncan]

My experience is that the best way to back up a save file is with a CD and pfix=noram. You never have to worry about the save file still being bootable next time.

The other way to do it is this:
If you have another save file on the drive, say a backup of your main save file, you get the option of witch file to use when you boot. There is also the option to not use a save file. If you don't use the save file, it is the same as booting from CD with pfix=noram. Still, most people only keep one save file on the HD and keep their backups somewhere else, so the CD option is normally the best.

I personally backup to the same HD once a week, and backup to another machine once a month.

[Pizzasgood]

Linux usually doesn't write to a drive immediately. It caches writes and does them in bursts. My guess is that it's more efficient to make larger less frequent writes than many small ones. The sync command forces the kernel to write any unwritten data to the drive immediately.

This is completely separate from what Puppy does with the pup_save.2fs file on a Flash drive. In that case, the data is being stored in a ramdisk, which is a portion of ram that is pretending to be normal harddrive (I suppose it's the dual of swap). So running sync would force all data that has yet to be written to that ramdisk to be written to the ramdisk. To force the data in the ramdisk to be written to the pup_save.2fs file requires the snapmergepuppy command, which is the command that Puppy runs when you click the "save" icon and when Puppy periodically saves.


SirDuncan's method is definitely the safest, though I haven't had any problems from backing up a running save file yet. I still try to avoid that when I'm not too impatient. A way to do it the knight's way without the CD or an extra save file, if you use Grub, is to just add a second entry to the menu.lst file with the pfix=ram option. Just open the file (probably /mnt/home/boot/grub/menu.lst) and copy-paste the Puppy entry. Change the title of the new entry so you can distinguish it, then add pfix=ram to the end of the line that starts with kernel.

[JonGl]

This is completely separate from what Puppy does with the pup_save.2fs file on a Flash drive. In that case, the data is being stored in a ramdisk, which is a portion of ram that is pretending to be normal harddrive (I suppose it's the dual of swap). So running sync would force all data that has yet to be written to that ramdisk to be written to the ramdisk. To force the data in the ramdisk to be written to the pup_save.2fs file requires the snapmergepuppy command, which is the command that Puppy runs when you click the "save" icon and when Puppy periodically saves.

So, is it worth writing a shell script that would run cache, snapmergepuppy, and then copy my save file to a separate partition; and exiting to shell, and running that, rather than a reboot pfix=ram or something? Or should I forgo that, and boot from ram?

-Jon

[Pizzasgood]

Only you can decide that. To me, backing up a running system is about the same as riding my bike without a helmet. I'll do it for the short ride to class or a quick backup, but for a longer trip or a 'good' backup I want my helmet / pfix=ram.

So far I've never hit my head while on my bike. Everything else, but not my head. Similar story with Puppy - I've broken it in nearly every way except by restoring a faulty backup. Doesn't mean it can't happen.


And just so I'm clear, snapmergepuppy only matters with a Flash install, and possibly Multisession (I haven't used Multisession, so not sure about how that works). For other installs, snapmergepuppy is unnecessary.