(a) does puppy make full use of my RAM if I do not use the pfix=ram? Hence, so if I have 8Gb there are no performance benefits using the pfix=ram boot prompt?
(b) if I always save my changes, does the pupsave file grow bigger & bigger everyday or does it somehow only remember the changes which may supercede previous changes.
(c) i want to install a few different puppy's to a bunch of partitions on my hard drive (frugal installs). what is the easiest way to install grub on the mbr? should i install grub manually or is it easier to install a frugal from the cd which also installs grub to the mbr?
Frugal & Toram Peformance Questions
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Pizzasgood
- Posts: 6183
- Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 20:28
- Location: Knoxville, TN, USA
I don't remember how I installed Grub anymore. It was years ago. I think I just let the Puppy Installer do it. Since then, whenever I want to install a new Puppy I just install the Puppy manually, then edit my menu.lst file by hand (/mnt/home/boot/grub/menu.lst, on my system anyways).
As for saving the changes, what Puppy does is the first time you save, it creates a pup_save.2fs file, and asks you how big to make it. That file is a "filesystem image", sort of like a .iso file. It can be mounted like a partition, except it needs the '-o loop' option. So the next time you boot, Puppy mounts it and sets itself up so that any time you add data or modify something, the new data is stored inside the pup_save.2fs file.
So the file doesn't grow in size at all. Instead, it fills up. Like a bucket. If you delete the old data, it goes away and leaves more room in the pup_save.2fs file. But only if what you deleted was actually in there - at the beginning, all the files in Puppy are not. They only go into it if you modify them.
In case you don't make it large enough, there is an option to increase it later by going to Menu->Utility->Resize Personal Storage File. It doesn't take effect until the next time you reboot.
As for whether it makes full use of your ram, it depends on how you define "full use". If Puppy is run from something it deems "fast" (internal harddrives, mainly) and you have over 280 MB of ram, Puppy will load all the default files into ram, which gives programs better access times, but uses up 94 MB of ram or so.
Anything that you add or modify is stored in the pup_save.2fs file though, which is left on the harddrive, so new programs you install don't get to benefit from those better start times.
After the first time you access a file or program, Linux itself will cache it in another chunk of ram automatically, no matter what way you run Puppy. So the second time you start the program it will generally start fast. If you eventually start running low on ram, it automatically kicks stuff out of the cache to make space. But it can never kick out the 94 MB used by Puppy's default stuff.
The pfix=ram option just tells Puppy not to load a pup_save.2fs file from the harddrive. Since it's not using the harddrive, any data you change or install will also be stored in ram and have fast access times. But in that case, you don't get to save the data unless you make a save file, and then the next time you boot it won't be in ram anymore.
As for saving the changes, what Puppy does is the first time you save, it creates a pup_save.2fs file, and asks you how big to make it. That file is a "filesystem image", sort of like a .iso file. It can be mounted like a partition, except it needs the '-o loop' option. So the next time you boot, Puppy mounts it and sets itself up so that any time you add data or modify something, the new data is stored inside the pup_save.2fs file.
So the file doesn't grow in size at all. Instead, it fills up. Like a bucket. If you delete the old data, it goes away and leaves more room in the pup_save.2fs file. But only if what you deleted was actually in there - at the beginning, all the files in Puppy are not. They only go into it if you modify them.
In case you don't make it large enough, there is an option to increase it later by going to Menu->Utility->Resize Personal Storage File. It doesn't take effect until the next time you reboot.
As for whether it makes full use of your ram, it depends on how you define "full use". If Puppy is run from something it deems "fast" (internal harddrives, mainly) and you have over 280 MB of ram, Puppy will load all the default files into ram, which gives programs better access times, but uses up 94 MB of ram or so.
Anything that you add or modify is stored in the pup_save.2fs file though, which is left on the harddrive, so new programs you install don't get to benefit from those better start times.
After the first time you access a file or program, Linux itself will cache it in another chunk of ram automatically, no matter what way you run Puppy. So the second time you start the program it will generally start fast. If you eventually start running low on ram, it automatically kicks stuff out of the cache to make space. But it can never kick out the 94 MB used by Puppy's default stuff.
The pfix=ram option just tells Puppy not to load a pup_save.2fs file from the harddrive. Since it's not using the harddrive, any data you change or install will also be stored in ram and have fast access times. But in that case, you don't get to save the data unless you make a save file, and then the next time you boot it won't be in ram anymore.
[size=75]Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. --Muad'Dib[/size]
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Bruce B
Re: Newbie Frugal & Toram Peformance Questions
Puppy 1.xx supported 1GB RAM, I've tried it with more RAM and didn't have problems, but only 1GB was managed.sml wrote:(a) does puppy make full use of my RAM if I do not use the pfix=ram? Hence, so if I have 8Gb there are no performance benefits using the pfix=ram boot prompt?
With 8GB RAM, on any Puppy version, I don't think anyone has tested, have they, ???
You can run some utilities and provide results for us, if you will.
I can add a bit more to that. Puppy is a 32 bit OS, which means it can theoretically address 2^32, or a bit more than 4 billion, memory locations. In my experience it only reports, and therefore presumably only uses, a bit more than 3 GB of RAM no matter how much more than that you have. I'm pretty sure that 3 GB is far more RAM than Puppy will ever use for most applications.
[url=http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=69321][color=blue]Puppy Help 101 - an interactive tutorial for Lupu 5.25[/color][/url]
Indeed, if you have 8GB of RAM and a 64 bit processor, you should use a 64 bit OS. If you have that much ram on a 32 bit system, you need a particular kernel variation (though often it is the default). 32 bit Linux can access up to 64 GB (I think) of RAM using this, however any one process can only get 4GB.
I'm assuming, however, that that was a hypothetical figure.
I'm assuming, however, that that was a hypothetical figure.
Wow .. thanks for the fast helpful replies 
I used Puppy a few years ago for a full year ... but since moved onto other distros but ... even with a 4Ghz, I still love & need the low latency of Puppy!
I read the puppy wiki about installing with grub, so I should be able to work my way through the grub install. I am going to set-up my hard drive like I did many years ago ... plenty of 1Gb partitions with different puppy versions & derivatives installed across them to play & test.
Two quick questions ....
1. To clarify my toram question this is what I would like to achieve:
- frugal install
- my pupsave file loaded fully into ram during boot
- my changes stored into ram whilst in use
- on shutdown, saving all changes to the pupsave file
Do I need to do a pfix=ram boot command?
2. So if I make changes to the pupsave file, like changing the desktop background to red, then blue, then back to red ... then all changes are stored in my pupsave file or just the last change to red?
I used Puppy a few years ago for a full year ... but since moved onto other distros but ... even with a 4Ghz, I still love & need the low latency of Puppy!
I read the puppy wiki about installing with grub, so I should be able to work my way through the grub install. I am going to set-up my hard drive like I did many years ago ... plenty of 1Gb partitions with different puppy versions & derivatives installed across them to play & test.
Two quick questions ....
1. To clarify my toram question this is what I would like to achieve:
- frugal install
- my pupsave file loaded fully into ram during boot
- my changes stored into ram whilst in use
- on shutdown, saving all changes to the pupsave file
Do I need to do a pfix=ram boot command?
2. So if I make changes to the pupsave file, like changing the desktop background to red, then blue, then back to red ... then all changes are stored in my pupsave file or just the last change to red?
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Bruce B
sml: my pupsave file loaded fully into ram during boot
bb: pupsave file doesn't copy to ram
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sml: my changes stored into ram whilst in use
bb: if hard disk install, changes are in real time.
maybe you can hack different behavior
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sml: on shutdown, saving all changes to the pupsave file
bb: they were saved during the session
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sml: Do I need to do a pfix=ram boot command?
bb: you can use it and it will bypass your pup_save file
and the entire operating system runs in ram if the user has enough ram
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sml: So if I make changes to the pupsave file, like changing the desktop background to red, then blue, then back to red ... then all changes are stored in my pupsave file or just the last change to red?
bb: all changes saved and the last change to red will be the final
change
bb: pupsave file doesn't copy to ram
------
sml: my changes stored into ram whilst in use
bb: if hard disk install, changes are in real time.
maybe you can hack different behavior
------
sml: on shutdown, saving all changes to the pupsave file
bb: they were saved during the session
------
sml: Do I need to do a pfix=ram boot command?
bb: you can use it and it will bypass your pup_save file
and the entire operating system runs in ram if the user has enough ram
------
sml: So if I make changes to the pupsave file, like changing the desktop background to red, then blue, then back to red ... then all changes are stored in my pupsave file or just the last change to red?
bb: all changes saved and the last change to red will be the final
change
It looks to me like the simplest way to do what you want is not to install Puppy to your hard disk drive at all. Instead, use a multisession CD (or better yet, DVD if you have a DVD burner.) Changes in settings are saved to the DVD, not to the hard disk drive. You can save other stuff to a hdd, or to a USB flash drive as I do.sml wrote:...1. To clarify my toram question this is what I would like to achieve:
- frugal install
- my pupsave file loaded fully into ram during boot
- my changes stored into ram whilst in use
- on shutdown, saving all changes to the pupsave file
Do I need to do a pfix=ram boot command?
2. So if I make changes to the pupsave file, like changing the desktop background to red, then blue, then back to red ... then all changes are stored in my pupsave file or just the last change to red?
[url=http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=69321][color=blue]Puppy Help 101 - an interactive tutorial for Lupu 5.25[/color][/url]
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Bruce B
I wholeheartedly agree, not so much just because it's simple, which it is; it also meets about all your criteria.Flash wrote: It looks to me like the simplest way to do what you want is not to install Puppy to your hard disk drive at all. Instead, use a multisession CD (or better yet, DVD if you have a DVD burner.) Changes in settings are saved to the DVD, not to the hard disk drive. You can save other stuff to a hdd, or to a USB flash drive as I do.
Which criteria does it not meet, Bruce? 
Sml, in case you haven't heard about multisession Puppy, it loads the CD or DVD entirely into RAM (plus swap, if it finds any), and does not use a save file on your hard disk drive. It does not load everything on the DVD into RAM. For instance, if you saved a file in one session, then deleted it in a later session, the file will not show up after multisession Puppy has finished booting.
You can try it with a rewritable CD or DVD. That's what I use.
Sml, in case you haven't heard about multisession Puppy, it loads the CD or DVD entirely into RAM (plus swap, if it finds any), and does not use a save file on your hard disk drive. It does not load everything on the DVD into RAM. For instance, if you saved a file in one session, then deleted it in a later session, the file will not show up after multisession Puppy has finished booting.
You can try it with a rewritable CD or DVD. That's what I use.
Thanks Bruce & Flash.
That sounds great except it would be a bit slower to boot. ... ie reading from a CD/DVD drive and not a hard drive.
I will do some testing tonight and I can answer this question myself but does Puppy access the cd/dvd drive during multisession cd/dvd use?
Hey .. just had another idea! Why don't I just do a pfix=ram boot, take out the CD and never turn off my computer! That might be the way to go!
That sounds great except it would be a bit slower to boot. ... ie reading from a CD/DVD drive and not a hard drive.
I will do some testing tonight and I can answer this question myself but does Puppy access the cd/dvd drive during multisession cd/dvd use?
Hey .. just had another idea! Why don't I just do a pfix=ram boot, take out the CD and never turn off my computer! That might be the way to go!
That's true but Puppy is so small that it doesn't make mutch difference.sml wrote:...That sounds great except it would be a bit slower to boot. ... ie reading from a CD/DVD drive and not a hard drive.
I'm not sure I understand your question. Assuming you have enough RAM for Puppy to load completely into RAM, you can remove the DVD from the drive and use the drive for other things....does Puppy access the cd/dvd drive during multisession cd/dvd use?
...Until there's a power failure....Hey .. just had another idea! Why don't I just do a pfix=ram boot, take out the CD and never turn off my computer! That might be the way to go!
Hi guys,
just one more quick question ....
I have just read up on the multisession dvd/cd option. the multisession dvd/cd is exactly what I am looking for! However can the same thing be accomplished with a frugal install? The mulitsession use is perfect as everything happens in RAM, but what happens with a frugal install. Is the hard drive accessed during use for the pupsave file? Or something else?
Maybe I could track down a application that monitors & records hard drive usage and test out the question!
just one more quick question ....
I have just read up on the multisession dvd/cd option. the multisession dvd/cd is exactly what I am looking for! However can the same thing be accomplished with a frugal install? The mulitsession use is perfect as everything happens in RAM, but what happens with a frugal install. Is the hard drive accessed during use for the pupsave file? Or something else?
Maybe I could track down a application that monitors & records hard drive usage and test out the question!
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Bruce B
The frugal doesn't run entirely in ram, the multi-session cd/dvd does. And it meets your criteria. I'm sure you will like it, just jump in and do it.
(There are other ways to run everything in ram, but nothing you can reference in a coherent complete writings. Ways that can occur to you as you become more familiar with Puppy. Nothing designed, you have to be the hacker.)
(There are other ways to run everything in ram, but nothing you can reference in a coherent complete writings. Ways that can occur to you as you become more familiar with Puppy. Nothing designed, you have to be the hacker.)
Thank you sir! Sold.Bruce B wrote:The frugal doesn't run entirely in ram, the multi-session cd/dvd does. And it meets your criteria.
Just reading the puppy instructions and burning as I type this out!
By the way, how would I add in additional modules if using a multisession dvd? Would I have to start from scratch and reburn the DVD?
PS - might need to reformat the beautiful partitioning system which I set up last night, as it is no longer needed!
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Bruce B
I'm sure Flash and I would be interested in feedback. I'm using 3.01 and 4.00 and doing well. Wonder what version Flash is using?
As far as doing thing like adding modules, it's not different. But because everything does get loaded in ram, you might want a hard disk Puppy distro for your compiler and kernel and all for building your own applications. Even with a lot of ram, one needs to be a bit thrifty.
As far as doing thing like adding modules, it's not different. But because everything does get loaded in ram, you might want a hard disk Puppy distro for your compiler and kernel and all for building your own applications. Even with a lot of ram, one needs to be a bit thrifty.