Bad Habbits Windows Users bring to Linux (not just Puppy)

Message

bugman · #21 Post by **bugman** » Fri 15 May 2009, 14:14

ICPUG wrote:The customer IS always right.

there's only one?

okay, customer A wants THIS, and customer B wants THAT, in exact opposition--which is right?

[and customer C wants something detrimental to the contiuing success of the entire enterprise]

ICPUG wrote:If they are wrong then they have to be educated/convinced to change what they are asking for until they are right - not simply ignored.

isn't that ecomoney's job? can't he satisfy his own customers? don't the puppy developers have enough on their plate already?

Patriot · #22 Post by **Patriot** » Fri 15 May 2009, 14:50

Hmmm .....

ICPUG wrote: .....
The customer IS always right. If they are wrong then they have to be educated/convinced to change what they are asking for until they are right - not simply ignored.

Thank you for your input. Looks similar like something out from the textbooks.

However, real world practical application is almost always different from theory. Environment variables need to be accounted for and its not the same everywhere. Eventually, after a period of time, the necessary skills developed and the phrase "The customer IS not always right" was adopted and has long served me well in what I do. I always value my real customers and I always strive to deliver the best within my ability. Still, I value my life more and if less stress keeps the doctor away then I will.

Kindly also separate the definition of "customers" here, please. My customers (that I refer to) are real life paying customers. I do what I can within my limits and I never promised something I cannot deliver. Open discussions with my real customers happens constantly and without much difficulty. They know what they want and they know why they came to me.

All these Linux mission statement or whatever becomes irrelevant when compared against ensuring having a roof over my head and food on my table. There's no such thing as state social welfare here. Either I work and get paid or I starve in a corner.

Please do not feel offended. What works for me may not work for you and vice versa. There's so many parameters to a particular issue and I believe you understand that an aspirin is not the cure for all illness.

@OP
I humbly apologize to the OP if I seemingly seen to be hijacking this thread for this will be my last entry here.

Rgds

ecomoney · #23 Post by **ecomoney** » Fri 15 May 2009, 19:53

"Customers" is not the correct term to apply to the people I work with. Although they pay some of my business expenses, I dont make anything like a "profit". Mostly they are people that cant afford anyone else. The reason I gave up a 35k a year job as a windows programmer was because I wanted to do something that actually made a difference (and to escape the stress and frustration lol)

isn't that ecomoney's job? can't he satisfy his own customers? don't the puppy developers have enough on their plate already?

My customers/friends that I have introduced to puppy - practically across the board - always point to the same areas....installing, adding popular software easily, win98 look etc

Ive listed them on the Puppy Missions thread

1. Extremely difficult to install without in depth linux knowledge (here)
2. Lack of the most popular applications available through the installer (FF, OO, aMSN,Skype)
3. Looks "old", Grey Win98 look/console loading/Xorg config is unattractive to new users.
4. Pup_save.2fs fills up, without resizing automatically.
5. Java does not install automatically to support things like facebook chat/ebay.
6. The internet connection wizard is unintuitive, and does not open automatically when needed (i.e. opening Seamonkey with no active Connection)
7. Single click on the desktop creates unfamiliar first impression.
8. Mousewheel over desktop make application "appear" to crash (here).
9. Mime Types are incomplete + unhelpful errors if filetypes are not supported.
10. Lacks Internet connection sharing feature

These things wouldn't be hard to fix...I could probably even fix them myself for me and my "customers/peers", but that wouldn't make any real difference unless they were included in mainstream puppy.

Meanwhile, back on topic....

Bad Habbits[sic] Windows Users bring to Linux (not just Puppy)

Windows users bring bad habits to mainstream Linux...to Puppy Linux, they bring challenges

dr_willis · #24 Post by **dr_willis** » Fri 15 May 2009, 21:33

I think this thread is getting a little bit off topic.. But it SURE is an interesting read.

If i am my own customer am i always right?
How can i be always right when according to my wife, everything i do is wrong?

Dingo · #25 Post by **Dingo** » Fri 15 May 2009, 21:47

While Puppy needs users are a bit *smart*, other distro (Like Ubuntu) are for stupid people, so, is better train yourself and became a bit *smart* than still a stupid people

why I say Ubuntu users, just leaved Windows are stupid people? read some words written by Ubuntu users on a forum in reply to my anwser :

- Q: I need a pdf editor
- A: (my answer): use multivalent pdf browser
- Q: Not found in repository, are you sure about name?
- A: (...)

you can see, Ubuntu people does not think to use google to find and use multivalent. A puppy user I think may say:

- thanks, I'll look for multivalent (oh it is java based, so I need Java, can you give me a link for java .pet, or .fsf?, otherwise, I'll install a bin package provided by sun or I'll make myself an sfs pack

ecomoney · #26 Post by **ecomoney** » Fri 15 May 2009, 22:08

People are not stupid for not knowing linux Dingo

They just havnt learnt yet

If you want them to learn...you have to move them from Windows. Windows keeps people stupid.

That means that we have to make puppy linux a little bit smarter to make up for that

MinHundHettePerro · #27 Post by **MinHundHettePerro** » Fri 15 May 2009, 22:39

bugman · #28 Post by **bugman** » Fri 15 May 2009, 22:51

MinHundHettePerro wrote: I do take some bad habits with me from Linux, back to windows, one is the extremely bad habit of single-clicking!!!

my worst habit on windows machines is thinking there are going to be functional system tools all over the place

@ecomoney, have you ever done an arch install?

mikeb · #29 Post by **mikeb** » Fri 15 May 2009, 23:07

9. Mime Types are incomplete + unhelpful errors if filetypes are not supported.

really hadn't noticed.seems pretty complete..and it just works...windows never does properly....and install a new application and watch it mess up again

10. Lacks Internet connection sharing feature

Code: Select all

iptables -t nat -A POSTROUTING -o ppp0 -j MASQUERADE
echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward

adjust to suit...
there yer go and works better than anything available for windows...why do you think the vast majority of routers run linux.

hey I like this colour business

mike

ecomoney · #30 Post by **ecomoney** » Sat 16 May 2009, 00:49

Linux developers are not typical computer users

Typical computer users eventually become Linux developers

Puppy Linux is the "missing link"

Build the bridge...and they will come

You guys like a challenge right?

tlchost · #31 Post by **tlchost** » Sat 16 May 2009, 02:52

ecomoney wrote:Linux developers are not typical computer users

Typical computer users eventually become Linux developers

Puppy Linux is the "missing link"

Build the bridge...and they will come

You guys like a challenge right?

James C · #32 Post by **James C** » Sat 16 May 2009, 03:07

I'm having trouble grasping the idea that "typical computer users eventually become Linux developers".

From what I've seen, the "typical computer user" just wants a system that works and looks like Windows.The problem is that Linux is not Windows and never will be Windows. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

mikeb · #33 Post by **mikeb** » Sat 16 May 2009, 03:14

I'm having trouble grasping the idea that "typical computer users eventually become Linux developers".

yeah me too....
He's busy rewriting barry's mission statement at the moment

Thank you runtt21, Ive been wondering where to put the Puppy Linux Mission Statement, as written by BarryK when he started the Puppy Linux Project. this is the ideal place. Ive made the relevant update. The missing mission statement at puppylinux.org has caused a lot of confusion lately...I hope this addition will clear that confusion up. Smile

Unfortunately the original website he started at www.goosee.com/puppy is now down, but a mirror of that original site is setup here.

http://www.ibiblio.org/bkauler/

If you google "puppy linux mission statement" you will see it has been included in every release up til 4.2.

runtt21 wrote:
Hey, one small question ..." especially designed for new users coming over from Windows" ecomoney where did you read that?

I didint read it, I wrote it...based on research and deduction.

this gets funnier...I hope he approves our contributions to puppy development...

mike

James C · #34 Post by **James C** » Sat 16 May 2009, 03:26

I know I probably wouldn't be accepted because I don't want a huge bloated Puppy that looks like Windows.

If I wanted to use Windows I have the discs, and the COA's, for Win 95, Win 98se, Win me( shuddering at remembering that piece of........),Win 2000, XP, Vista and 7. I prefer Puppy.

Bruce B · #35 Post by **Bruce B** » Sat 16 May 2009, 03:59

The worst habit I brought from Windows to Linux was rebooting my machine a couple times a day. The purpose being to get those irretrievable resources back.

Now I don't even worry if uptime is a day or a week.

ecomoney · #36 Post by **ecomoney** » Sat 16 May 2009, 04:04

MikeB

I go on to explain my "reason and deduction" (in FULL) on the post here

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 0&start=12

It continues...

If you look over at http://www.puppylinux.org/home/overview you will see the line in the mission statement

Puppy will be extremely friendly for Linux newbies
Wikipedia states that as of April 2009, 91.22% of computers run Windows as an operating system. (source). Therefore the vast majority of "Linux newbies" previous computing experience will be with Windows OS.

Why did Barry start the Puppy Linux Project in the first place?

In an interview with LinuxWorld Australia, Barry said

"Puppy is designed to be very easy to use, with a Windows 98 look and feel, kind of but better, with lots of GUI Wizards. There's a little GUI application for everything," Kauler said.

Kauler, who comes from a background as an MSDOS/Windows user and systems programmer, said he'd tried several Linux distro's but none had convinced him to desert Windows, so he decided to develop his own in 2003.

"I was particularly concerned with the sluggishness of modern GUI Linux distros, as well as how some things that were a pushover to do or setup in Windows were very complicated in Linux," he said.
(source

The two topics did merge for a while....but if you are going to quote me...quote me in full please.

I am not "trying to rewrite any mission statement", only to ensure it is remembered by Puppies developers...but yes you are correct, I judge the work of developers in terms of how well their contribution to the Puppy Linux Project helps it meet its objectives.

James C wrote:I don't want a huge bloated Puppy that looks like Windows.

Neither do I, I want an operating system that successfully meets its stated objectives. Puppy Linux should be "friendly to Linux Newbies" before it is friendly to Linux Developers.

MinHundHettePerro · #37 Post by **MinHundHettePerro** » Sat 16 May 2009, 10:19

dejan555 · #38 Post by **dejan555** » Sat 16 May 2009, 10:39

dr_willis wrote:I think this thread is getting a little bit off topic.. But it SURE is an interesting read.

Hehehe, this is like linux version of spanish soaps

mikeb · #39 Post by **mikeb** » Sat 16 May 2009, 11:42

Hehehe, this is like linux version of spanish soaps

hmm methinks more like the Amsterdam approach.......keeping the rest of the forum clean

mike

moogsydodong · #40 Post by **moogsydodong** » Sat 16 May 2009, 13:15

bad habits I brought from windows is collecting redundant unnecessary applications...

To ecomoney

LINUX IS NOT WINDOWS! that's the first truth people need to accept when using or migrating to linux...

linux is not designed to suit the taste of widows users...
linux is designed for users...various kind of users not just users from the windows brainwashed world...

puppy linux is VERY USER FRIENDLY...
everything is just a few clicks away....
the only difficulty I had when I came to puppy is installing it...
I did not know the word boot,boot loader and partition...NOW I KNOW!
thanks to puppy now I know more than I did before...

puppy linux is not a merchandise who needs costumers...
it is a free software with no warranty...if anyone wants to use it they can provided they understand what they are getting into...

barry did not made puppy to impress anyone...still puppy turns out to be more than impressive...

last but not the least...puplets exist! if anyone doesn't like the official release because it lacks the bling(bloat)...then there are tons of alternatives...I use NOP more beautiful than windows...

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Bad Habbits Windows Users bring to Linux (not just Puppy)

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