Why we should forget about converting Windows Users

[Sylvander]

1. "symlink those system and system32 directories into the windows folder contained in wine"
(a) What about the fact that my Windows is Win2000Pro; would that cause any problems?
e.g. In WINE it's possible to specify that you want it to simulate WinXP, yet the files being used are those for Win2000Pro.

(b) Plus I'm so much of a Puppy newbie that I'm not certain I know how to symlink using Xfe.
Seems easy enough though.
Do I just r-click on a folder and choose "Symlink to...", and navigate to /root/.wine/drive_c/windows [my wine-drive-c-Windows-folder]?
With Xfe I can display both locations in the dual panes.

(c) And wouldn't it mean that the Windows partition [sda1] would need to be mounted in order to use WINE?

[puponmanyoldlaptops]

I came to Linux as a poor man with a love of learning about the workings of the free PC and Mac hardware I'd been given and no money for multiple OSes.

The Live CD opened my world widely. I have used various Linuxes on various platforms since 2005. I joined,
(as a volunteer), a non-profit computer refurbishing place. Their focus then was on giving low cost computing to low income people.

I went the gamut with Live CDs that were targeted at low-end computers. I found that Puppy was the best choice for them. They were a "give-away" item that let those people have a machine that accessed the internet with selected hardware. My efforts represented the cheapest alternative to what was being offered.

I DO push Linux very hard. To me it's worth the effort. I don't narrow the effort. EVERYONE I come in contact with gets exposure, the few who are open and interested "get" Linux and become users.

The attitude existing in non-users over Linux is like my attitude over the Mac OS used to be. "too weird, don't wanna bother".

As I show the right people what Linux IS, what it DOES and what it HAS in terms of great software, I find the resistance lessens.

It's a good day when one of the dozens of people I come into contact with converts.

Linux is tough to easily integrate into the lives of new users solely due to it's sore lack of total, detailed, dependable support for new users.

Maybe it wants to remain a low-impact, backwater alternative lifestyle for higher functioning beings.

Given what it offers to poor people, and computer users in that great big world out there, I hope not. I also hope it never becomes "mainstream".

The world needs only one Windows experience.

Puponmanyoldlaptops

[PupGeek]

1. "symlink those system and system32 directories into the windows folder contained in wine"
(a) What about the fact that my Windows is Win2000Pro; would that cause any problems?
e.g. In WINE it's possible to specify that you want it to simulate WinXP, yet the files being used are those for Win2000Pro.

(b) Plus I'm so much of a Puppy newbie that I'm not certain I know how to symlink using Xfe.
Seems easy enough though.
Do I just r-click on a folder and choose "Symlink to...", and navigate to /root/.wine/drive_c/windows [my wine-drive-c-Windows-folder]?
With Xfe I can display both locations in the dual panes.

(c) And wouldn't it mean that the Windows partition [sda1] would need to be mounted in order to use WINE?

(a) I am using WinXP Pro and am having no problems, so I do not think there will be any with Win2K Pro. Alternately, you can also do a copy/paste, but why waste the space in your pup_save file when a symlink will work just as good?

(b) I am not familiar with Xfe, but that sounds about right to me... I use rox where I just open up two windows and navigate to my source in one and destination in the other and use the "drag 'n drop" method... It gives me a choice to move, copy, symlink relative, or symlink absolute. If a relative link doesn't work use an absolute link.

(c) Yes, it would need to be mounted, but if you have saved your puppy session to your windows drive, it will automatically mount when you boot puppy.

[Sylvander]

1. "Yes, it would need to be mounted, but if you have saved your puppy session to your windows drive, it will automatically mount when you boot puppy"
(a) I make a point of NOT holding any such thing on my Windows partition.
So I hold the pup_save file[s] on my PC's F: data partition.

(b) Wish I'd been smart enough to make a special small partition dedicated to holding only the pup_save files.
Did that on my neighbours PC [I'm introducing him to Puppy Linux].
At this point it's on his new 1000GB External USB2 HDD [only 250GB partitioned so far].
So NO PARTITION[S] on his internal HDD get mounted, so it's possible to mess around with that as much as we like [re-arranging partitions etc].
Later on we might transfer that [small pup_save partition] to his internal HDD.

[dawg]

Having had some success in doing it, I don't agree that we should stop trying to "convert" people to Linux.
One does, however, require a certain amount of skill/knowledge in order to be able to do it successfully.. and/or maybe some luck sometimes

Most obstacles have already been addressed in this thread (I may also contribute a couple of my own).
To sum them up for everyone's convenience:
1. unawareness/ignorance of the existence of Linux (the Matrix runs on Windows)
2. misconceptions about Linux ("hard to use", the dreaded command line, free) and M$-drone propaganda ("anti-communism")
3. psychology: fear of the unknown / familiarity / the comfort zone (these are all related)
4. modern games
5. some business software
6. careless user
7. our own pushiness & timing

I might add more later if I forgot any..


So what to do with each?

1. Talking about Linux, mentioning the good points (spreading awareness).

2. That was like 10 years ago, most modern Linux variants are pretty easy-to-use and some of them very user-friendly, especially Puppy (can mention how)
"if it's free, it can't be very good" or "Linux is for commies" --
"Well, Windows costs a lot and it's crap, wanna see how cool Linux is? it has this-n-this-n-that and can edit your Win docs and even has this that Win hasn't. All for free. Also many websites run on Linux and are more reliable and safer than the Win ones"
"Linux was 'invented' by a guy from Finland (a non-communist European country) who now lives in the US. Linux is being maintained and developed by enthusiasts and dedicated, good-willed contributors from all around the world."

3. This one's a bitch. Familiarizing and convenience should help - direct interaction/experience.
"Here's mine, wanna try it a bit?". Also having live CDs at hand is useful.

4. This one I stumble into quite often and it seems a predominantly male thing (?).
Not much you can do about it if the game(s) won't run well on WINE, and/or if the user isn't otherwise interested in giving Linux a try. Dual-boot with Win can perhaps be an option.

5. If you can't get it to run well on WINE, you're likely out of luck. Potential options are home/spouse/kids computers.

6. Not much you can do about this one; move on.

7. One should know the limits; being pushy works against you.
Good timing will help a lot. For example, mentioning the good points of Linux when the user complains about Windows
(speed, ease-of-use, ease-of-repair, stability/reliability, no viruses - so slowing anti-viruses not required, hardware support / running out of the box / installing drivers usually not required, bling available...)

(Your comments welcome..)


A bit of my story..
I never have been very fond of Windows, all its issues, and most of all, the sociopathic corporate bullshit of M$.
Every new release that I had tried would always come with its own crap, but I had no alternative, so I stuck with it (XP in the end).. until a colleague gave me a CD with BeOS 5 Pro. I began using it in dual-boot with my Win and quite loved it, but it didn't have everything that I needed, so a full switch wasn't possible for me for the time being.. I had since also tried RedHat 7 but couldn't quite figure it out, always ended up breaking it, and soon gave up on it.
So in 2003, I finally got some access to a fast internet line and began downloading and trying out new stuff; mainly the BeOS 5 PE Max editions, Mandrake Linux, which were cool, but still not quite "it" for me, so I stuck with dual- and triple-booting them with XP..
Finally, around late 2004, I found the Mandrake/Mandriva 2005 satisfactory, and decided to get rid of the Windows frustration altogether, and to make things simpler, albeit with some hesitation, also removed the BeOS, partly also because it wouldn't run on my then-new lappy.
Well, I am since a free and happy Linux user
I've been using mostly Mandriva, also tried some Ubuntu, Knoppix and other stuff, but now in the last months I am mainly happily running on Puppy power

I've managed to get a couple of ex-coworkers to try Linux, and one in particular, being tired of viruses & such crap, was quite relieved and happy with it (Slix 2.0, a Knoppix variant).
The other one had agreed for me to install her Mandriva alongside the XP, but she couldn't use it so much because of her family, although herself she was quite satisfied with it when she could get to using it.
I also nearly got one internet colleague to go for Puppy when she had been getting tired of her old "dying" (fixable) lappy, and she was actually quite enthusiastic about it (loved the logo and all), but then in the end decided to just get a brand new Mac so just some bad luck on "my" part there..
..But there is hope!


PS: Sorry for the long post..

[legendofthor]

G'day,
I too have struggled with the "M$ mindset". So I started a Linux Users Group. The first meeting was last Saturday and a total of four people came (including me); and guess what ... I had a ball - one person (a friend) was curious about Linux but had never crossed over - gonna try a wubi install of ubuntu.
Well our goal is to get active in the community - there are heaps of old computers just being chucked in landfill - get a couple of them install a local CE version of Puppy and give it to charities (already have one place lined up) - advertise and hope curiosity and word-of-mouth brings more people.
I am eternally optimistic and just keep plugging away and knocking on doors to promote the benefits of Linux - and not rubbish Windows (it does a good job of that)

NOTE: Getting together with other like minded people is good for the soul - JOIN A LOCAL LUG OR START YOUR OWN.
Cheers
Martin
Dedicated to my eternally optimistic dog Barnaby (rest-in-peace old friend)

[racepres]

I must admit that I have not read all of the posts on this thread..
I will respectfully submit that we must all quit "helping" our "friends" with their windoze problems... You know, bugs, viruses, trojans... tell 'em to just deal with it.. cause they chose windoze, and constantly download "infected" junk. Leave them in their self imposed misery... and like me..smile smugly as your box works flawlessly..
$0.02
RP

[alienjeff]

Tough love, eh racepres?

[puppyite]

the dreaded command line

This is and will continue to be a problem until Linux GUI proponents outnumber CLI bigots (or bigots die out). RE: Advice to newbies who prefer a point & click approach.

modern games

See: Play Windows games on Linux with PlayOnLinux
Linux Migration Guide: Keep Your Windows Games

[puppyite]

So I started a Linux Users Group. The first meeting was last Saturday and a total of four people came (including me); and guess what ... I had a ball - one person (a friend) was curious about Linux but had never crossed over - gonna try a wubi install of ubuntu.

A pox on Ubuntu, up with Puppy! IMO frugal Puppy install beats wubi hands down, YMMV.

Well our goal is to get active in the community - there are heaps of old computers just being chucked in landfill - get a couple of them install a local CE version of Puppy and give it to charities (already have one place lined up) - advertise and hope curiosity and word-of-mouth brings more people.

I commend your efforts. More people need to engage in these types of ecologically and socially responsible behaviors.

NOTE: Getting together with other like minded people is good for the soul - JOIN A LOCAL LUG OR START YOUR OWN.

I had considered starting a LUG too but I lack the social skills.

Dedicated to my eternally optimistic dog Barnaby (rest-in-peace old friend)

Cute name for a dog (or a cat). Animals deserve all the love we can give them.

[rarsa]

the dreaded command line

This is and will continue to be a problem until Linux GUI proponents outnumber CLI bigots (or bigots die out).

Here you are adding to the to the misconception.

The command line is not a problem. It is a solution. Getting rid of the command line solves nothing.

I can help someone with 10 pages of screenshots showing GUI steps or in one single line command line that they can cut and paste.

Advocating the proper use of the CLI is not biggotry.

Actually even MS had to back down and fix their CLI (They hadn't because they thought that if they had a crappy one, no one would use it). They released PowerShell, Finally a proper shell.

The same happened to MAC when they addopted BSD.

So, not everything is better with a CLI but not everything is better with a GUI.

Knowing when to use each one is the key.

I actually did three presentation for my local Software Freedom Day event a couple of weeks ago that may help easying the transition

Why Software Freedom is important to people that do not care otherwise
See it online
Or download the OpenOffice file

A practical comparison to ease the transition, no ideology or bashing involved.
See it online
Or download the OO file

And this one meant to remove the fear of the command line.
See it online
Ordownload the OO file

These were short, 20 minutes presentations.

[ndujoe1]

I don't attempt to foist PuppyLinux on my windows friends. I just let them watch as I use Puppy Linux to fix whatever is broken at the moment.

[puppyite]

Rarsa,
See my edit about CLI in above (nothing about eliminating the CLI).

You may want to consider cutting back a little on the caffeine but YMMV.

[rarsa]

I had considered starting a LUG too but I lack the social skills.

You don't really need social skills, trust me. People will come and find their space. Eventually more people will come.

[rarsa]

You may want to consider cutting back a little on the caffeine but YMMV.

Hey, maybe it was lack of... It's 8:00 AM here!

[puppyite]

It’s a bit early in the morning to fight a pitched battle about CLI versus GUI. Especially since there are people waiting for my help plus I have other tasks to accomplish today.

The command line is not a problem. It is a solution. Getting rid of the command line solves nothing.

I favor keeping it too.

I can help someone with 10 pages of screenshots showing GUI steps or in one single line command line that they can cut and paste.

Technically you are correct but if the goal is to speak to a newbie in language that is familiar to him/her then a point & click solution will be more effective. Language exists to accomplish this goal without ten pages of screenshots. I.E. Go to: Menu > ?

Advocating the proper use of the CLI is not bigotry.

I don’t say you do this but: It becomes bigotry when the Linux guru(s) derides the newbie for not being able to grasp a CLI solution. I have seen this happen countless times in other forums.

So, not everything is better with a CLI but not everything is better with a GUI. Knowing when to use each one is the key.

I would be hard pressed to argue against this point. There are times when only a CLI command will do. Having said that I will also say that it is sheer folly for developers to build GUI and then have experts tell newbies how inferior it is compared to a CLI and how they should just give up on it. I have seen this said countless times too.

I actually did three presentation for my local Software Freedom Day event a couple of weeks ago that may help ease the transition

IMO no amount of presentations will offset the damage done when a newbie is told to RTFM or STFW when they fail to implement a CLI solution given by the “UNIX faithful

[Puppyt]

From legendofthor

... I started a Linux Users Group. The first meeting was last Saturday and a total of four people came (including me); and guess what ...

... I was there too! Came away from that meeting looking for a suitable thread to post a couple of points "from the dark side" of my XP-alter-ego. And legendofthor beat me here! (Again l.o.t. I'm really sorry to hear of Barnaby's passing - I think that naming the CE 'Barnaby' is a cool idea -if I got that right.)

There are a few Windows freeware programs that I use habitually - indeed my continuous search for the cream of open-source and freeware applications in the Windows environment led me on the natural process of jumping out of Windows completely. (Well... not completely just yet - there are still umbilicus-like strings attached - hence my moniker "Puppyt".)

Now I'm not trying to buy into the "yer either with us, or agin us" arguments here, but might I highlight a small range of freeware applications that have either already made the transition from Windows into Linux - or have no intention to make the crossover and as yet there aren't any clean comparisons in the Linux world (that I know of - please correct me if so). I reckon these would be great additions to the Puppy stable. (They might also be useful in providing a functionally-familiar feel for those similarly caught mid-stream between Operating Systems, and the whorls and eddies of sustainability and commercial ethics.) They are:


Handbrake http://handbrake.fr/ video converter. gposil's already written up a pet for it, available from his downloads page http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=313672. Much easier to use in Windows than the similar software currently available to Puppy, I find - though I should give the video editor AviDemux (in puppy) a proper attempt as it is generally favored over my beloved VirtualDub (in Windows).
IrfanView http://www.irfanview.com/ compact graphic editor and viewer - here for an assessment from a Linux user http://www.increa.com/computers/irfanvi ... atives.htm I use it to give the Mircosoft default scanner and paint programs the bums rash.
Jarte http://www.jarte.com/ word processor - not freeware, but are there Linux equivalents to this neat elaboration of Wordpad? I haven't tried it under WINE yet.
Launchy is now in Linux! http://www.launchy.net/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Launchy Once you try this you'll find it simply indispensable. It's nearest equivalents under Linux are Gnome Do and Katapault (KDE) - I reckon gposil might be working on a puppy Katapault even as I write this...

And if anyone is even slightly interested in what may be happening with the finest in the field of Windows freeware, check out Gizmo's Freeware http://www.techsupportalert.com/ and chortle at the 60% of stuff that simply isn't required in Puppy, or is already there (like AbiWord, OO etc).

[rarsa]

IMO no amount of presentations will offset the damage done when a newbie is told to RTFM or STFW ...I know this for a fact because *I* was a victim of this narrow minded, bigoted attitude..

I wonder if there is anybody that hasn't been subjected to (and resented) the RTMF response.

Check slide 7 of my "Linux for windows users" presentation. That one is meant to address exactly this problem.

I point out that culture is one of the main differences between Windows and Linux. As with any other human interaction, without understanding the cultural differences, communication suffers. (I live in Canada where we are constantly aware of this)

When it comes to non technical people in Windows people fix things for them. In Linux we help people fix things. I see this as the main barrier of entry but not an insurmountable one.

To reduce the impact I recommend:
- Learn to search.
- Learn to ask.

(I've opened a thread to talk about cultural differences to avoid hijacking this thread http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 946#347946

[PupGeek]

You know? I have seen some references in this forum about linux and Communism and Socialism and it got me thinking..... Linux is Communist.

Now before you get the rope to hang me with, let me explain myself further. Communism and Socialism are two different things. Communism is an economic system whereas Socialism is a way of expressing authority. When I pondered on this issue some things came to mind, particularly about intellectual property rights.... It seems that they really bring the truth to light make it obvious.... True freedom thrives on Communism because Socialism is really a product of Capitalism. It exploits Communism in order to promote itself.... Its basically a way of saying "I own all of this and have provided it to you, therefore you owe it to me to follow my rules."

I would rather be free to use my Communist Linux distribution any way I want to than pay $200 to agree to Micro$oft's Socialist End User License Agreements.

[rarsa]

And if anyone is even slightly interested in what may be happening with the finest in the field of Windows freeware, ...(like AbiWord, OO etc).

It is important to note that Free Software is not the same as Freeware.

Freeware is proprietary software which happens to cost nothing.

Free Software may share the cost factor but has the added advantages provided by the GPL or other OSS style licenses.

e.g. neither AbiWord or OO are Freeware.