How to remove Puppy to make frugal install of Mint or Ubunt

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windowsuser · #1 Post by **windowsuser** » Mon 15 Mar 2010, 16:51

I would like to remove all the Puppy files, but I am unsure if it's just a matter of removing the puppy folder (where I also placed the pup_save file along with the other 3 necessary files) and the 2 grub files (i.e. menu.lst and grub file) and reloading my original boot.ini file for XP. I had set the size of the folder to 500Mb. The reason is I need to do a frugal install of Ubuntu or Mint without a CD, but already have a frugal install of Puppy loaded on Windows XP partition.

Or am I missing something? I am guessing I could do a frugal install of Ubuntu, for example, without the CD, in a similar manner to how I setup the dual boot with Puppy after I remove Puppy. Sorry to ask you about Ubuntu, but I will be coming back to Puppy at some stage.

Jim1911 · #2 Post by **Jim1911** » Mon 15 Mar 2010, 18:16

It is very doubtful that either of those may be safely placed on an NTFS partition, frugal installation or otherwise.

Puppy can happily coexist on a Windows partition. If you need a more powerful pup check out Lighthouse for your frugal installation.

To properly install Mint or Ubuntu, you will need to reduce the size of your Windows partitition and create a new linux partition for the installation. Of course you may still need a linux swap partition, depending on your ram.

windowsuser · #3 Post by **windowsuser** » Mon 15 Mar 2010, 20:42

Thanks for that information. Having searched the web I came across mint4win and unetbootin, both of which gives a frugal install for mint or ubuntu (mint4win equivalent) on ntfs partition of the windows xp. I had a look at the Lighthouse version (very nice though it has apps I won't need), but i imagine I would have the same problem with that as I am experiencing with puppy, i.e. not able to get my t-moblile usb wireless broadband dongle to work.

nooby · #4 Post by **nooby** » Mon 15 Mar 2010, 21:38

I have tried since maybe November 2009 or so to have frugal install of Ubuntu and Mint at both time in dual boot with Vista.

XP is a bit easier though so maybe some boot guru does know how to.

The two developers of Wubi has experimented with frugal install so try to find user name Ago member of Ubuntu forum he knows how to.

I have a link to a very short describption he made for me.

But I am a computer idiot so it was way over my head.

Tuxcantfly who is the maker of Unetbootin most likely knows how to too. These two guys may have written how one does it.

But you only get persistent save of changes if you make a loop mounted file in ext2 or something. That is most likely what Wubi is all about. You can not save changes through the OS itself on NTFS.

Or if you know how to then please tell me I have searched for it for many months now.

I can give you menu.lst for Ubuntu and mint tomorrow. Too late tonight and I get visits tomorrow.

They only work for one os at a time. but Puppies you can have many bout only one ubuntu type of linux.

I have now done frugal of ubuntu in the SuperOS version, Linux Mint and Linux Mint KDE CE, Sidux , Antix but failed with Elive, TinyCore and Slitaz but none of them can save except Puppy due to too Barry made use of UnionFS files and sadly the Ubuntu people don't set it up that way.

But you can use USB and there the saving of changes do work. Pendrivelinux site has many descriptions of how to.

Here is some of the many entries in my menu.lst

remember I have vista. I am not sure if ubuntu behaves exactly same on a XP formatted NTFS. Try and tell what did happen.

title antiX-M8.5-prefinal
kernel (hd0,0)/antiX/vmlinuz vga=791 fromhd=/dev/sda1 fromiso=/antiX/antiX.iso xres=1024x768

initrd (hd0,0)/antiX/initrd.gz

boot

title superos
(Standard Ubuntu 9.10 with codecs.)
rootnoverify (hd0,0)

kernel /casper/vmlinuz file=/cdrom/preseed/ubuntu.seed persistent boot=casper splash --

initrd /casper/initrd.lz

boot

title tinycore
linux
kernel /tinycore/bzImage

initrd /tinycore/tinycore.gz

boot

title Slitaz

find --set-root --ignore-floppies /slitaz/bzimage

kernel /slitaz/bzimage rw root=/dev/null autologin home=hda1 vga=normal

initrd /slitaz/rootfs.gz

title sidux Live (fails to mount sda1 iso renamed by me)

kernel (hd0,0)/sidux/boot/vmlinuz0.686 boot=fll vga=791 fromiso=/sidux/sidux.iso

initrd (hd0,0)/sidux/boot/initrd0.686

title xPUD
Linux
root=(hd0,0)

kernel /xpud/boot/bzImage noisapnp lang=se quiet

initrd=/xpud/opt/core /xpud/opt/media

# title Linux Mint KDE CE 8 (fail to mount sda1)
You can only have one at a time, either Ubuntu or Mint)

# rootnoverify (hd0,0)

# kernel /casper/vmlinuz file=/cdrom/preseed/mintkde.seed persistent boot=casper splash --

# initrd /casper/initrd.lz

# boot

davesurrey · #5 Post by **davesurrey** » Mon 15 Mar 2010, 22:56

Not totally sure what your final objective is, but if you would like to retain Windows and install Mint plus have Puppy as well then why not:

1. keep puppy frugal installed in the same partition as Windows uses.

2. resize this partition (using windows) so that you create a new partition to which you can install Mint.

OR:

1. Delete the puppy files. Here's the deal...you tell me which puppy you have then I can tell you what to delete.
But in general if it's a frugal install it'll be files like vmlinuz, initrd.gz, pup_XXX.sfs and a save file like pup_XXX_save.2fs plus may also be a zdrvXXX.sfs file for some puppies.

2. make a new partition and install puppy to that.

3. experiment with Mint4win.. but I have no knowldege of it.

OR:

1. keep Puppy on the Windows partition

2. cross fingers and see if Mint4win can be installed to that same partition.
Not being glib but again no idea if Mint4win works well.

I have seen a message from the developer of wubi and reading between the lines I would not use it if my Windows partition contained important stuff I didn't want to lose. Or if I were not sure what I was doing.

One last thing, please be clear that Puppy's frugal install is different to Ubuntu and Mint type "frugal" install. I never call them frugals myself.

HTH
Dave

windowsuser · #6 Post by **windowsuser** » Tue 16 Mar 2010, 13:00

Thanks guys, that's very useful. I will let you know how I get on. I have decided to keep puppy for now and to try the triple boot method. I may try with Ubuntu first as it seems less problematic. Just wanted to make sure that if/when I do remove Puppy all that is needed is to remove the puppy folder and the files I mentioned. It seems from the reply that is true.

davesurrey · #7 Post by **davesurrey** » Tue 16 Mar 2010, 16:51

Deleting a frugal Puppy is, as mentioned, just a matter of deleteing the few Puppy files:
vmlinuz
initrd.gz
pup_XXX.sfs
pup_save_XXX.2fs save file if you have one
and sometimes a zdrv_XXX.sfs

But should you ever wish to delete puppy and revert back to Windows...if you previously used Puppy's grub files to boot either puppy or windows then you'll need to reinstate Windows XP as the booter.
You'll need to reinstall the MBR of your hard disk.

Simply run your Windows installation CD (I hope you have one) as if you were doing a new install but run Recovery Console. When you are logged on (if you don't have an admin password just press enter IIRC) you can run

Code: Select all

fixmbr

and

Code: Select all

fixboot

commands. Then exit the CD and reboot Windows. That should fix it.

HTH
Dave

big_bass · #8 Post by **big_bass** » Tue 16 Mar 2010, 17:09

I will change my avatar if I get Linux to work and it is better than windows

the avatar was your choice
freedom to chose

I like fishing so that's my avatar

if I get Linux to work?
linux does what you tell it to do

Joe

windowsuser · #9 Post by **windowsuser** » Tue 16 Mar 2010, 18:45

Nice one.

The problem is though, knowing how, and what, to tell Linux what to do. I never got my USB broadband stick to work ever since I installed Puppy

I really don't want to have to learn new programming syntax, I left that business behind in the 80's, and I thought Linux had become user friendy

windowsuser · #10 Post by **windowsuser** » Tue 16 Mar 2010, 19:00

davesurrey wrote:Deleting a frugal Puppy is, as mentioned, just a matter of deleteing the few Puppy files:
vmlinuz
initrd.gz
pup_XXX.sfs
pup_save_XXX.2fs save file if you have one
and sometimes a zdrv_XXX.sfs

But should you ever wish to delete puppy and revert back to Windows...if you previously used Puppy's grub files to boot either puppy or windows then you'll need to reinstate Windows XP as the booter.
You'll need to reinstall the MBR of your hard disk.

Simply run your Windows installation CD (I hope you have one) as if you were doing a new install but run Recovery Console. When you are logged on (if you don't have an admin password just press enter IIRC) you can run
Code: Select all
fixmbr
and
Code: Select all
fixboot 
commands. Then exit the CD and reboot Windows. That should fix it.

HTH
Dave

I am glad I asked the question as that information about the MBR is interesting. I used grldr (grub for dos) to get the dual boot in windows XP. I used the method for frugal install as outlined in the Lin'n'Win project, and the reason I used that is I thought the MBR wasn't touched as according to the method it says:
"Windows likes to install some code in the MBR so I will NOT use any code that installs itself there, for fear of breaking Windows."
http://www.icpug.org.uk/national/linnwi ... -intro.htm

hmmm. As I don't have my windows CD maybe I better leave Linux Puppy where it is.

P.S. Actually I had uninstalled Puppy before, I had forgotten, when the first dual-boot had problems with "pup-431.sfs not found" after the dual-boot prompt on selecting Puppy. I had deleted all those files you mentioned and reinstated the original boot.ini file and windows XP worked perfect, as before Puppy. hmmm, now I wonder if after it booted successfully if it would have changed the MBR, can't see how it could, but confused.

One thing, of the files you mentioned, there is only one I hadn't included, that is zdrv_XXX.sfs. What does that file do? is it a driver? could it be I need that to get my USB broadband to work? and while we're on the subject is there a splash screen for puppy?

big_bass · #11 Post by **big_bass** » Tue 16 Mar 2010, 19:45

windowsuser

I never got my USB broadband stick to work ever

well its good to see that you understood
my rare form of humor

If you have trouble with t-moblile usb wireless broadband dongle ask some questions

in this thead

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=22469
p.s. ask nicely he may be grumpy

or if you're feeling lucky I built using a different kernel than the official puppy
http://puppy2.org/slaxer/Slaxer_Pup-4.12_USB.iso

so hardware detection is different

Joe

davesurrey · #12 Post by **davesurrey** » Tue 16 Mar 2010, 20:24

Tony,
Sorry if I have inadvertantly confused you but trying to help without all the info is always prone to that.
If you used Lin'N'Win then you are correct in that it doesn't change the MBR. So nothing to worry about and no need to do any fixmbr etc stuff.

But if you had used the grub in Puppy to do the booting then you would have had to do the fixmbr stuff if you deleted Puppy. And same goes if you installed Mint/Ubuntu and used the grub of that.

Still not sure what Puppy you have but in general if the iso doesn't have a zdrv_XXX.sfs file then it'll be included in the pup_xxx.sfs file. Yes it contains drivers.

HTH
Dave

#13 Post by **BÃ©Ã¨m** » Tue 16 Mar 2010, 21:25

The problem with windows users is that they aren't reporting what they should for anybody else to get a full understanding.

efiguy · #14 Post by **efiguy** » Wed 17 Mar 2010, 05:40

Hi and welcome Windowuser,

With all the Vista hullabloo, I once again investigated Linux in 2009, and In my humble opinion - you will not find a more user friendly distro for those of us in the DOS ages onward than PUPPY, many other Linux versions call a frugal install 10-20 +Gb ;)

A recap of what I understand you have: A NTFS Windows file system of XP, A 500Mb directory where Linux (Puppy) files are residing, plus a GRUB installation and modified boot.INI.

As a suggestion for the moment, I would leave win boot.INI and grub ldr alone, and make the recovery of your Windows installation more assured by following some of these links.

I'm pretty sure that the installation of Windows and the disk MBR are vulnerable at this time if you continue other Linux installations. I've developed some unwanted experience here.

1) To lessen the chance of a windows loss - Go here (Lot of good info in this link too)

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 5&start=90

and download the 2 files on this page (7), do perform the Recovery console edit so that a rebuild is possible from Recovery Console - And look into the Help Links file for a program called ERUNT - A registry backup that can change a damaged registry on a nonbootable installation. Also consider building a "Bart Disk" as it is a great NTFS tool. Perhaps this is a good time to purchase a strickly expermental PC at flea market or school IT suppliers in local area, consider setting it up as FAT32 for cheap and easy to use tools are available.

2) I have found that if boot.ini points to a directory like yours that late Puppies can be swapped by interchanging - initrd.gz, vmlinuz, the pup_xx.sfs, move the pupsave file somewhere else and rename (as a new one will be built), leaving boot.ini and grldr alone.
The whole group of Puppy files can all be moved someplace for backup if you want to restore operation later. The root Pup swap can usually be ignored or just dumped to avoid any possible interaction. But the others here have far more insight into the workings of Puppy, I do some simple stuff.

3) Here is an easy way to start the Puppy learning curve, and Puppy is an excellent tool to have on the booting drive. I have tried this on a FAT32 install of XP and it worked perfectly, there are some entries stating there may be problems with a NTFS 5 XP drive but the 44098 link may have solved those.
Installerpages:
Puppy Win32.exe installer for Xp, 2000
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=42867
Puppy-Win32-Installer
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 14&t=44098

Also, to make things easier, Puppy as a second boot system has a specific Fat32 Common Disk Directory added to facilitate swapping files accross. For frugal installs of puppy, most of the time I use FAT32 as the XP and Puppy source drive.

With audio and jpg files now carrying threats, i've modified Windows to stop autorun - cut and chopped to eliminate and turn off real world (IE gone) pretty connections - basicaly with all services clipped or shutoff, few, if any exploits can operate as the creator had designed. With extensive port shielding, file and printer sharing turned off, units are on a cdrom or usb "sneaker net".

Now having spent the last few years on sensory deprivation, the new Puppies are in a word - gorgeous, like this one as an example.
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 66&t=47588

Puppy is used for most Internet access. Viewing TV - NoScript, the plugin, is available for FireFox and Seamonkey too
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/seamonkey/addon/722

Modifying The Windows Services Hardware Profile - a first approach to threat mitigation - most of the cute little things cease to function

Control panel,
System,
Hardware,
Hardware Profiles,
select "Profile 1"
Copy "Profile 1"
Rename - like - "Chopped_Profile1"
Back out of Menus,
Reboot

On boot startup,
Select your new Profile,
Select Control Panel,
Open Administrative Tools,
Select "Services",
Now explore and learn - Services names and numbers will vary as to Service Pack level installed and how they behave, as SP3 has some that can't be turned off
Select your new Profile, consider as a first experiments level to switch "Automatic Start" to "Manual Start" Proceed to shutdown - "sevices" specific to this new profile
Note that many "Automatic services" like to go out to internet and login, these are targets, for the novice to place into Manual Mode - Also they can be switched to internal also - maybe at a later step. For this modified Profile is copyable and more extensive disabling can proceed in a step level mode.
Be aware, the internal selection; "Take No Action" can be your best friend in the modification process of service selections listing, especially around RPC functions.

regards
Jay

windowsuser · #15 Post by **windowsuser** » Sat 20 Mar 2010, 06:52

Guys, sorry didn't report back earlier, but have been trying to get my USB broadband to work (richard has been very helpful and is working on it), and haven't yet tried the multiboot, as still researching the best way of doing things. I don't want to mess with an install that changes my MBR, and I am looking for a way to do it without creating another partition on my hard drive. I can't boot off flash stick so that option is out. My window system contains very important files for me and although I have backed up most, I would hate to have to reinstall windows again. I am taking my time to research the best option before trying and all your comments have helped me greatly. I have a dual boot going with Puppy 4.31 and also Puppy 4.21 and XP. I like Puppy frugal install, why can't the others be so straightforward? I will let you know as soon as I do the multiboot with Ubuntu.

efiguy, thank you for that very informative post. I am still going through some of the suggestions, and links. I am very security conscious and have incorporated many of the steps you have already. Thing that worries me is the new graphic file extensions that can be exploited, and audio!!! I have Online Armor as my preferred firewall. Main reason for choosing to use a Linux distro is for my internet activity, precisely for the security. Heard so much about how linux cannot/doesn't get infected, but that must be so wrong, still much better than windows.

#16 Post by **BÃ©Ã¨m** » Sat 20 Mar 2010, 11:45

Try the Lin'N'Win method.

windowsuser · #17 Post by **windowsuser** » Tue 23 Mar 2010, 11:56

I had used the Lin'n'Win method to install the puppy versions I had.
Anyhow, have something to report.
What I did: First, only moved grldr and menu.ls from c:/ to a temporary directory and restored original boot.ini file (keeping the puppy boot.ini file also in temporary folder) then I used Wubi to install Ubuntu 9.1. This went without too much hitch. After testing Ubuntu for 3 days I concluded I preferred my Windows XP for several reasons, not least of which everything worked and Win XP booted faster and word is much faster than open office writer. Ubuntu though did detect my USB broadband stick automatically, which I have yet to get Puppy to do.

After trying out Ubuntu, I simply restored the 2 puppy files + boot.ini from my temporary folder to c:/ and rebooted. This was after removing Ubuntu using uninstall facility in windows XP.

Benefit: safely keeping windows XP intact without need for partitioning or messing with the widows MBR, and if I had wanted to keep trying Ubuntu with Puppy, without uninstalling Ubuntu, it would just be a matter of swapping puppy files for Ubuntu files back to c:/ before shutting down the OS. An easy operation if creating temporary directories for these 2 OS c:files and swapping their contents to c: as needed.

Now, if only I could get my USB stick to work in Puppy I could tailor Puppy to my requirements.

nooby · #18 Post by **nooby** » Tue 23 Mar 2010, 14:18

Ubuntu though did detect my USB broadband stick automatically, which I have yet to get Puppy to do.

I am not good at reading text.

Did you give us the make and model of that "Dongle" to broadband usb stick.

I have a many kinds of usb sticks but that they could be broadband? Do you mean a Wifi usb stick like Belkin or some other make? I tested one such and that one worked.

Not sure if I tested in puppy though. I ahve no wifi modem to use it together with.

If you give us the model and make then maybe someone have knowledge or know if it is listed in the drivers for such in the kernel?

Aitch · #19 Post by **Aitch** » Tue 23 Mar 2010, 15:08

Hi windowsuser, or should I say windows'n'puppyuser?

Here's a 'simple as' method for any XP/2000 users - an installer, just like any other windoze program....uninstall when you don't want it, or have learned enough to do a frugal install safely

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=44098

bottom of the thread, Vista is discussed, but no-one has taken up the challenge yet, AFAIK

enjoy

Aitch

windowsuser · #20 Post by **windowsuser** » Tue 23 Mar 2010, 20:13

Nooby,
the USB stick is T-mobile 530 broadband, apparently Globetrotter , model number GI0431. The problem appears to be the modeswitching. I am getting some help in this thread, though problem remains unsolved:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 571#402571

Aitch, thanks. I never knew such an installer existed. It would have saved me time.

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