A single voice to speak for Puppy

[shariebeth]

The best way to achieve that is to post a PM to Barry explaining your intentions and asking if they can be posted in his Development Blog for comment. Use my forum handle in the subject line or content and link to this thread if you think that would help you to get his attention. If he agrees then you already have a BIG head start. Approached in the appropriate spirit I don't see why he wouldn't support the idea.

Done.

[gcmartin]

In observing over the past few days the comments made here, I find some very useful observations coming from the community.

There is a possibility that if you want to build a community of PLUGs around the Puppy products, it might stand a greater opportunity for success IFF it is developed from the top down, with an anniversary review process of how well the PLUG is operating within its "defined structure". This approach would have merit in that a review would determine how well the PLUG is doing in comparison to others, and would allow successful PLUGs to provide frameworks for success to those that will be struggling.

This is how all business school models work! We should approach this with an understanding that "central" Puppy is the factory, and PLUGs are the discussion groups and voices to the factory.

This means someone(s) providing a beginning framework that is in agreement with the factory. Thus we are talking about potentially doing something that is akin to a franchising where every PLUGs strucutre and operation would be extremely similar for operational measurements.

I can see (from 10,000') how this would work, but, we do NOT have an internet model for the success of someting like this. So, it should be thought thru, planned, discussed in a core group, have reviewers comment for agreement of a "franchise", and several agreed to, beginning PLUGs to observe participation. (this is how Pepsi, MacDonalds, etc achieved suceess; we should be thinking about "success")

Remember, we must be specific, on its mission and its expected contribution, for the whole community.

P.S. Don't rule out ANY resource that could make this successful; including Google or any tool(s). Its not about the tools we use, its about the success we achieve for our community!

Hope it helps

[Bruce B]

I wrote Barry one time and one time only about a bug.

I think there is bug in file abc at line 123

He responded within several hours and it is fixed for any future releases.

~

[Bruce B]

I wrote Barry one time and one time only about a bug.

I think there is bug in file abc at line 123

He responded within several hours and it is fixed for any future releases.

~

WhoDo,

For a variety of reasons, I don't make private requests of the developers. I could explain why, but for the sake of this post, I won't.

The one time I did which is cited above, I did it in the context of helping.

About the idea of a "single voice" the only way I could see it being of benefit is if the developers only listened to that single voice.

It would be the developers call to shut down other avenues of communications.

In your previous experience for an example, you could have posted or communicated, please forward requests to Sharie, she is acting as my liaison. And enforce your stand of course.

After a period of time, people learn that the only way to get through to you is by your liaison.

Other than a system like that, I don't see how it would work.

I don't participate on Barry's blog or pay much attention to it. The little I have looked at it, it seems he enjoys communicating with others on his blog.

If a developer likes to communicate with others about his project, that is of course his prerogative. But it negates the idea of a single voice, which I hope you mean a liaison for most all voices.

Summarizing, I guess I want to say, it's all up to the individual developers or project managers how they want to receive communications.

Thoughts?

Bruce

~

[shariebeth]

Hi,
Here's an update of my involvement to date:
I have had responses directly and indirectly from Barry and several devs that this would be something they think could be of benefit. All of course have various and different concerns and hopes for it as well.

Given that, I have submitted a request to JohnMurga and active Admins requesting a forum subsection be created to this end. This was a day short of a week ago. To my knowledge, they have not come to a decision yet, as I have heard nothing either way. (As we all know, simply creating a "thread" will just result in a 200+ page mess that nobody really wants to weed through and that will be no different than what we have now.)

The idea behind this is that the section would be open, transparent, and organized yet strictly controlled to prevent the derailment, duplication, and noise that plagues most all of the large threads.

That said, we could set up outside of forums but given that now there would be confusion and questionable legitimacy, setting up under the "official" umbrella of Murga is desirable under the circumstances. In addition, many more people would be aware of PLUG if we were to start up in these forums and could easily see the progress and how they could contribute.

Hopefully this can be moving along soon!

[Jasper]

Hi shariebeth,

I suspect that from your viewpoint (as and if the single voice) that a single thread would actually be best.

You could use ThreadGet to download/update, and then easily edit and manipulate any number of pages which would surely be simpler (for you) than keeping abreast of multiple threads.

Perhaps, hopefully, a few good things will emerge and there may be some high quality interest, but I expect the quantity (and general quality) of interest will be so low (and conflicting and possibly so imprecise) as to render the project meaningless.

My regards

[WhoDo]

About the idea of a "single voice" the only way I could see it being of benefit is if the developers only listened to that single voice.

It would be the developers call to shut down other avenues of communications.

In your previous experience for an example, you could have posted or communicated, please forward requests to Sharie, she is acting as my liaison. And enforce your stand of course.

After a period of time, people learn that the only way to get through to you is by your liaison.

Other than a system like that, I don't see how it would work.

In my mind, this isn't about shutting down other lines of communication, Bruce. Good ideas come from all sorts of places and most devs are willing accept good ideas regardless of the source. I know I was.

The problem is more at the user end of the spectrum. So many users offer requests, ideas, suggestions, wishes, etc. that often the individual ones get missed, overlooked, or even ignored. The devs usually have neither the time nor the inclination to spend hours on the forum looking for ideas or explaining to individual users why this idea or that suggestion simply won't work in the context of Puppy. My hope that the PLUG will plug that gap (ahem).

The carrot for the developers is that the PLUG will organise multiple requests for a particular feature and quantify its importance to the user base. Whether the devs DO anything about that is, of course, up to them. If they can't then they will only have to explain why, or why not, in the one place for all to see. It will be up to those in the PLUG with enough dev speak to be able to translate to those without in their own user speak as part of the PLUG's function; again voluntary.

I don't participate on Barry's blog or pay much attention to it. The little I have looked at it, it seems he enjoys communicating with others on his blog.

If a developer likes to communicate with others about his project, that is of course his prerogative. But it negates the idea of a single voice, which I hope you mean a liaison for most all voices.

Summarizing, I guess I want to say, it's all up to the individual developers or project managers how they want to receive communications.

Once Barry's Blog becomes known to some of the squeekier wheels, it will lose its attraction. Either Barry and the devs will ignore requests there too OR the squeeky wheels will head back to the forums to bemoan the ignorance of the devs. The PLUG is designed to prevent such scenario by giving the devs a place to refer requests and the users a place to put their ideas to those who speak their language.

The PLUG should agree on a "single voice" to represent all of their wishes and requests, in a reasonable fashion, to the dev section of the Puppy community. The devs will still choose whether or not to listen and/or respond BUT that single voice carries much more weight because it represents a whole community's ideas with the crackpot fraction filtered out.

Some of the current non-dev community have already established respected lines of communication; people like gcmartin for example. There is no reason why they couldn't also represent the views of the wider community through the PLUG. I would also expect the various NES forums (French, Spanish, etc) to feed into the PLUG as well. It would be great if the PLUG could establish links with the Vietnamese community through Hakao and the Japanese community through shinobar or someone similar as well. It is certainly possible. All it takes is people willing to DO something rather than talk about it. I applaud shariebeth for being willing to drive the effort. That is Puppytude, as Lobster would say.

[shariebeth]

Update:
Still no response from Admin team.

[Flash]

It's not up to the Admin team to decide whether there should be a single voice to speak for Puppy, or who that voice should be. As far as I'm concerned, my job is to make this forum as useful as possible for users of Puppy Linux. Anything else is above my pay grade.

Has anyone noticed the Usergroups section of the forum?

[shariebeth]

It's not up to the Admin team to decide whether there should be a single voice to speak for Puppy, or who that voice should be. As far as I'm concerned, my job is to make this forum as useful as possible for users of Puppy Linux. Anything else is above my pay grade.

Has anyone noticed the Usergroups section of the forum?

All I asked from the Admin team is for a forum section with some moderators and possibly an admin to organize it and rearrange it satisfactorily as needed.

The idea is to have a public place to post and be seen, but at the same time able to control the mess, arrange threads and posts, and keep it organized and griefer-free in one set spot that is easy to find for both users and devs. I even provided a template of sorts.

There is nothing on your head with this. Worst case scenario, if it doesn't work out, you lose nothing except one forum section. No time on your head, no responsibility on your head.

And how is this not an attempt to be useful for users and devs? Seems it fits THAT requirement to a T.

To quote one of our esteemed members, there's no need to complicate toast.

[Bruce B]

The idea behind this is that the section would be open, transparent, and organized yet strictly controlled to prevent the derailment, duplication, and noise that plagues most all of the large threads.

Sharie,

I don't think this was made clear, neither Flash or I even have the software to make this kind of forum. Not that I'm aware of or seen in the controls.

I have seen software where posts and articles get submitted, but not immediately posted until they have been reviewed.

Bruce

~

[shariebeth]

The idea behind this is that the section would be open, transparent, and organized yet strictly controlled to prevent the derailment, duplication, and noise that plagues most all of the large threads.

Sharie,

I don't think this was made clear, neither Flash or I even have the software to make this kind of forum. Not that I'm aware of or seen in the controls.

I have seen software where posts and articles get submitted, but not immediately posted until they have been reviewed.

Bruce

~

Huh? I laid it out quite specifically in my request to all of you.
All I'm asking for is a forum section where we can make a few subsections, and a few people to be made moderators and possibly an admin (or even you or Béèm if either of you were interested in participating).
Somebody here has to be able to add a forum section and divvy it up into a few subsections like we already have now.

[Bruce B]

Sherie Beth,

I am very discreet about disclosing private communications. What is said in private stays that way.

For this reason, I didn't reference anything you wrote. Now, in reference to what you wrote personally, nothing Flash, or I could do in terms of adding moderators or administrators. We don't have software permissions.

Bruce

~

[shariebeth]

I appreciate that Bruce, and likewise.

That is why I sent a copy of the same thing to all active Admins and JohnMurga. Somehow I had it in my head you'd all discuss it and come to a decision and the appropriate people (or person I guess in this case) would set it up as requested.
(Please note this comment is not based on an assumption the request would be granted, just what I imagined would be the scenario IF it was.)

I did not send pm's trying to be sneaky or private per se, but I felt you all deserved the opportunity to discuss it amongst yourselves without the usual barrage of feedback and derailment this forum can generate. But it's been over a week now.

It is rather frustrating to be told to "do" then be hit with such roadblocks. I just can't see what you-plural (admin team and JohnMurga) think you have to lose by giving this a home.

[DaveS]

Huh... we gonna have ranting egos in two places now instead of one????

[shariebeth]

Huh... we gonna have ranting egos in two places now instead of one????

Thank you for proving my point.

[Bruce B]

Sharie Beth,

Flash referenced the Usergroups section. Find out what he is thinking of.

It seems you had some unanswered questions or a mystery. I was trying to fill in some gaps. However, considering DaveS and your comment. Work it out on your own. I have no control over this anyway and none of it affects me

Bruce

~

[Aitch]

It seems to me that the best organised section we have is the one pizzasgood set up, with sub-forums, namely
- Additional Software (PETs, n' stuff)

Looked at from the main Forum Index page, its sub-forums form a clickable easy access menu

IF I understand Sheriebeth's idea....the aim is to have a usergroup section, built similarly, with its own elected 'voice' representative/moderator team, whose role it would be to oversee the section, and problems brought up by others, after discussion, moderate the heat out of it, and feed the useful bits to interested devs, to enable positive growth - [A database of bugs/fixes/puppies/derivatives/versions/kernels, and requests may be on the agenda ]


Given that John M has invited forum change/improvement, despite having added new mods, to sit back and carry on as usual is, IMHO self-defeating, and likely to be fuel for a revitalisation of the very instance which we just got rid of...that is...resolving dissatisfaction with Puppy as an OS and its forum, as its userbase help point, and at the same time helping to improve its credibility and PR, by being visibly more friendly in resolving things

Now, given that we are a bunch of volunteers.....in my mind, anyone offering to do something positive is to be encouraged, especially whilst there's still energy in it as a topic

So, my suggestion, is for a trial setup of a section along the lines suggested, such that if it doesn't work, or becomes a burden for existing mods, it could be removed with reasons given and discussed as necessary - IF called for removal of burdens was not implemented - a bit of co-operation here seems to be essential....yes?

How does that sound?

I believe it is for John M to implement, but he needs at least recommends or support from existing mods to feel it necessary, before he's likely to do it.....so, mods, WE NEED YOUR HELP, [pretty] PLEASE

'Good discussion....whingeing and backstabbing to a minimum' can't be a bad thing, surely?

I believe that to be at least one of the goals

Aitch

[WhoDo]

I believe it is for John M to implement, but he needs at least recommends or support from existing mods to feel it necessary, before he's likely to do it.....so, mods, WE NEED YOUR HELP, [pretty] PLEASE

Thank you, yes, Please please pretty please.

Under the forum USERS (for the regulars) we have 3 sub-forums for those of non-English speaking backgrounds. Someone was able to configure that.

Under the PUPPY PROJECTS forum we have 3 sub-forums for development, localisation and documentation.

Under the ADDITIONAL SOFTWARE (Pets & Stuff) we have no less than 21 sub-forums to logically organise the high volume of posts in that area.

What is so hard about adding a further sub-forum under USERS (For the regulars) called Puppy Linux Users Group and appointing sub-forum moderators to manage that as was done for me with the Puppy Projects sub-forums some time back? It doesn't have to involve sub-sub-forums and all sorts of complicated stuff. Just an accessible sub-forum link visible from the main forums index and administered by a core group of interested individuals.

I understand that Flash and Bruce may believe they don't have the "pay grade" to implement a major re-organisation of the site, but someone was able to provide the sort of minor re-organisation noted by Aitch and me here and that's all that's needed to at least get this thing up and running. As Aitch has pointed out, we at least have someone willing to DO something with this perennial problem and that should be encouraged.

Thank you for your patience and consideration.

[WhoDo]

It's not up to the Admin team to decide whether there should be a single voice to speak for Puppy, or who that voice should be. As far as I'm concerned, my job is to make this forum as useful as possible for users of Puppy Linux. Anything else is above my pay grade.

Has anyone noticed the Usergroups section of the forum?

Sorry, Flash, but I think you've misunderstood the intention. Yes, the PLUG could encourage membership of a PLUG user group, but that would do nothing to organise the posts requesting changes and discussing options. That needs at least a sub-forum. Someone was able to create the 4.X sub-forum under Puppy Projects > Development when I was building Deep Thought. That's one level lower than required here but my previous post explores the options in that regard.

You are NOT being asked to establish the PLUG group; just create a sub-forum in which it can operate and be moderated by interested individuals.