Riots in the UK

[alienjeff]

Britain is a riot

[gcmartin]

"Britain is a Riot" video has lots of anger coming from many like him from all over. I reacted the same way when the news was first out. This gentleman is obviously one of the haves. But, there are many others who think that the anger is better directed at taking strides to change and improve the atmosphere such that it does NOT repeat. Everyone is NOT just angry at "those people" (the names we assign to people who happen to live in those depraved communities). The class structure is being viewed as maybe coming up with a better way such that all facets of society improves overall relationships which, no doubt, improves opinions.

But, the commenter in Britain is a Riot fails to look at how this all got started. "Those people" got tired of what they have been seeing as injustice from the authorities without anyone providing relief!. And the community reacts.

Many of us feel that you cannot call a system a failure if there was never any attempt to improve it. That's how it got like this to begin with. It DIDN'T start with "entitlements" and entitlements aren't the problems. Further, drugs traffic is NOT some sort of an underground movement for in order for it to exist, someone(s in extremely high places is funding/allowing the methodology for it to exist as a means to continue to maintain the "down the nose" views we have/harbor. Yeah, I am angry too that this has occurred, but, I am also knowledgeable that maybe England may step up and put forth a revolutionary example of a solution. if not, expect that this will continue to happen everywhere in Europe. And if it does, its SYSTEMIC!

But, there is also a community of us that believe England may actually do something to begin providing opportunity to its neighborhood clusters and those who have no means to gain meaningful work. That, in itself, is a crafty step forward. Because as soon as that is done, other parishes and community will cry out "What about us?" What would YOU tell them, then? Remember, its a class structure. Guess what is going to happen.

Ideas....anyone....ideas

[aarf]

face it US is a degenerate culture and barbarian society.

That's a rather broad brush you're wielding, aarf. Pray tell me ... to what country do you pledge your allegiance?

hmm yes i have a passport as is required but i have had others.. i find it difficult enough to choose a country just for temporary residence, let alone pledge allegance. but be assured that the barbarian states is right at the bottom of any country i would even consider to visit. and i have been to many. including many previously barbarian bombed places where i mostly find societies much more agreeable to my demeaner than the hoards of state barbarians i am forced to endure on the road.

[PaulBx1]

And we've been a FORMERLY great nation for years!

The U.S. as well.

And, you can best believe, as UK is very good at, there will be changes made to insure that this kind of thing, not only will not develop (police), but, also, in changing the makeup of the population distribution, its education, and its opportunity so that this kind of thing will not repeat.

This seems very doubtful. More likely, the things tried will make life worse. It's not like do-gooders have not been operating for decades already.

Suffice to say the criminals are not going after the elite. If they were, government knows exactly what to do.

Bruce, you cynic!

Reports say he was not unarmed. He was carrying a loaded gun.

Either that, or the cops had a handy throw-down gun. One never knows what to believe... Anyway what is wrong with having a gun? I have had one always handy for the last 20 years or so.

face it US is a degenerate culture and barbarian society.

It's true. That's what years of welfare does to a culture.

Although I should say, that barbarians often look a lot more virtuous than the so-called civilized people. For example, compare the degenerates in the Roman Empire with German barbarians of the same period.

I appeal to those who are or have contributed to this forum's thread in ANY WAY to share any ideas they can about what need be done by government to have communities like this get a newer life which has a different outlook on its authorities.

For me, and people like me the best thing for government to do is leave us alone! For others, it may be something different; I don't speak for them. The obvious conclusion is that all government should be local - different towns should have different kinds of government, and people can then move to a town that suits them best. National governments, good only for getting into wars and mass slaughtering of their own citizens, should cease to exist.

or are willing to give to lift them out of their social economic nightmare and give them the respect that they deserve as human beings

Many human beings are not deserving of respect. But you go ahead and respect them all you like. Personally, I think tolerance is the highest civic virtue. I mean it in the original sense of the word, with no connotation of respect.

Maybe I want to say there are no inherent rights in the jungle.

There are no rights out of it, either. Rights are a warm, fuzzy fantasy that a lot of people have. They are a meme of questionable utility.

The UK has completely perverted the concept of the welfare state: the idea is to help people, not just let them sit on their arse all their life.

You are not sufficiently cynical. The idea was never to help anyone (other than the welfare workers and bureaucracy); the idea was to make people dependent.

Being an adult means taking responsibility for your actions. That's the one thing the authorities keep failing to do: make them take responsibility for their actions.

Why should they be, when they've been taught all their lives it is not necessary?

Courts don't deal with emotions, only facts

They seem to be mainly centered around urban farming of non-medicinal marijuana. Maybe the Government will have to finally directly tax these enterprises to help our economic recovery?

Er, if you want to help the economy, the last thing you should do is tax and control people. You should leave 'em alone.

Well, if I were to do something like that, I'd do it in a more productive way, like sending them to the Soylent Green factory...

I guess I have a hard time imagining the mindset of preventing shop owners from using a very effective means to prevent their shop being trashed - yet invoke Soylent Green as a solution, even as a joke (lots of things start as jokes, and get serious later). How collectivist can you get?

I look at people as individuals. If someone is trying to bust into my place, he will be given a choice: move on or die. Most have the sense to move on. The few who don't, are better off dead. There is no need for government to do anything to "fix" this problem. Government is a disease masquerading as its own cure.

However, it is not supposed to be about turning a profit for the council, but about helping the unemployed by
- getting them to get up early, get out of the house and do a day's work, exercise a little!

You don't have to get them to do anything. Their empty bellies are all the motivation they need. If we would only stop stealing from the productive to feed their laziness, there would be a lot more productive and a lot fewer lazy.

For those of you who think we need to "fix" things, rather than just leave them alone:
"If I had to point out the characteristic trait that differentiates socialism from [a proper view of the political economy], I should find it here. Socialism includes a countless number of sects. Each one has its own utopia, and we may well say that they are so far from agreement that they wage bitter war upon one another. Between M. Blanc's organized social workshops and M. Proudhon's anarchy, between Fourier's association and M. Cabet's communism, there is certainly all the difference between night and day. What then, is the common denominator to which all forms of socialism are reducible, and what is the bond that unites them against natural society, or society as planned by Providence? There is none except this: They do not want natural society. What they want is an artificial society, which has come forth full-grown from the brain of its inventor... They quarrel over who will mould the human clay, but they agree that there is human clay to mould. Mankind is not in their eyes a living and harmonious being endowed by God Himself with the power to progress and to survive, but an inert mass that has been waiting for them to give it feeling and life; human nature is not a subject to be studied, but matter on which to perform experiments." -- Frederic Bastiat

[sc0ttman]

Anyway what is wrong with having a gun? I have had one always handy for the last 20 years or so.

In a country where it is illegal for people to just carry guns around, there's a problem.

Although I should say, that barbarians often look a lot more virtuous than the so-called civilized people. For example, compare the degenerates in the Roman Empire with German barbarians of the same period.

Yep.. Barbarian was an umbrella term used by Romans to describe just about anyone outside the empires borders - with the general meaning of being an uncultured bunch... Even if they weren't..

different towns should have different kinds of government, and people can then move to a town that suits them best.

My 2 cents (pence): Agreed. Bring back the city state and oikos!

The UK has completely perverted the concept of the welfare state: the idea is to help people, not just let them sit on their arse all their life.

You are not sufficiently cynical. The idea was never to help anyone (other than the welfare workers and bureaucracy); the idea was to make people dependent.

Not the original intention, but now how it's used. Although, now that it doesn't suit the gov so much, they're re-thinking it.

They seem to be mainly centered around urban farming of non-medicinal marijuana. Maybe the Government will have to finally directly tax these enterprises to help our economic recovery?

Er, if you want to help the economy, the last thing you should do is tax and control people. You should leave 'em alone.

Most things cannot always be correct in every case. Ask Denmark.

However, it is not supposed to be about turning a profit for the council, but about helping the unemployed by
- getting them to get up early, get out of the house and do a day's work, exercise a little!

You don't have to get them to do anything. Their empty bellies are all the motivation they need. If we would only stop stealing from the productive to feed their laziness, there would be a lot more productive and a lot fewer lazy.

They are doing that - with the disabled!

And, yes, why didn't we see more shop owners take weapons and such to protect their stores? Even in the UK that is allowed - you can get away with shooting a burglar in your house in the UK, so why not a looter in your shop??

I know of a person who used to stand by his car, with a sword, every Saturday afternoon - watching as Millwall football fans left their stadium - walking down the road after the game, kicking cars, breaking windows, etc... But they never touched his car.

But, and not that I take any offence BTW, it makes laugh seeing Americans jump on the UK because of these riots - far worse has happened in the US, years ago, for much of the same reasons, and things aren't any better for these people now... Ours are watered-down repeats... Not to mention the fact that most of the UK rioters are aping, and claim to be mainly 'inspired' by and 'interested' in, the American gang 'culture' still being churned out, just now commercially... If these kids were wearing big clocks, I'd swear Public Enemy came back for an unsuccessful UK tour...

[Bruce B]

It might be the same in the UK and laws differ from state from state here in the US. I'd like to offer a rough draft of how it probably works in most states.

The general idea is one can kill someone in defense of human life. One cannot however kill in defense of property or animal life.

One can kill a burglar, if the bugler or situation caused him to become reasonably afraid for his life, or the lives of people in the house. The tool used, if any, to protect life is of secondary importance.

In a riot environment, the same principles hold true.

~

Disclaimer: I'm not an attorney. Get the legal facts before asserting some 'rights' such as when killing is not murder.

~

[Bruce B]

But, and not that I take any offence BTW, it makes laugh seeing Americans jump on the UK because of these riots - far worse has happened in the US, years ago, for much of the same reasons, and things aren't any better for these people now... Ours are watered-down repeats... Not to mention the fact that most of the UK rioters are aping, and claim to be mainly 'inspired' by and 'interested' in, the American gang 'culture' still being churned out, just now commercially... If these kids were wearing big clocks, I'd swear Public Enemy came back for an unsuccessful UK tour...

sc0ttman,

How did David Cameron justify the UK's bombing in Libya?

The fact that he, (along with our leader), is doing it tells me they both think killing people and destroying property can solve problems. Even to the extent of being a justifiable means of solving problems.

Bruce

~

[Dougal]

Well, if I were to do something like that, I'd do it in a more productive way, like sending them to the Soylent Green factory...

I guess I have a hard time imagining the mindset of preventing shop owners from using a very effective means to prevent their shop being trashed - yet invoke Soylent Green as a solution, even as a joke (lots of things start as jokes, and get serious later). How collectivist can you get?

Why not use them for something positive feeding the starving people in Africa?
Keep in mind that not everybody considers a 2000-year-old edition of Farmer's Almanac to be the Divine Word of some Supreme Being (be "He" supernatural or just a visitor from Remulak).

Yep.. Barbarian was an umbrella term used by Romans to describe just about anyone outside the empires borders - with the general meaning of being an uncultured bunch... Even if they weren't..

Yes, Terry Jones had a few things to say about that... he claimed the "Barbarians" were more civilized and technologically advanced than the Romans (but the Romans won, cause they were more... vicious. Just like Christianity and Islam taking over the world).

[dogle]

You are not sufficiently cynical. The idea was never to help anyone (other than the welfare workers and bureaucracy); the idea was to make people dependent.

Ace! Most insightful remark in this thread, IMHO.

[alienjeff]

Personally, I think tolerance is the highest civic virtue. I mean it in the original sense of the word, with no connotation of respect.

I can't let that go by without quoting G.K.Chesterton, coincidentally a Brit:

"Tolerance is the virtue of a man without convictions."

[cthisbear]

I remembered the film was Sci-Fi and that Charlton Heston starred in
it. Wasn't he all tattooed??

But I never actually saw it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green

So that's the plot eh!

Laughed.

Now back to topic.

Clockwork Orange reality in the UK.

Chris.

[gcmartin]

I find it very interesting that we, most of us of some "middle" class in education or attainment, can only suggest that we

1. follow the likes of a science fiction movie or
2. do nothing and it will right itself???

That's the best we can do? Hmmm!!!

For those of us with convictions, there is NO religious institution in the world that would instruct parishioners to do this.

So how is that this is the best that we can do???
Have we become so insensitive that we, ourselves, don't care?
Are we too afraid to come up with real solutions?

Let me just cover the do nothing aspect. If you stop and do nothing, even cutting off the meager aid they do have, what are you suggesting is going to improve that community? Is industry going to somehow magically emerge? Is some sense of economy is grow by itself to provide work, food, housing, education and transportation to a community which doesn't have enough coming in to do any of these things today?

is the people who can barely afford to live in substandard communities going to somehow gain enough wealth to move to your community so that they can live like you?

What kind of people have we become that this is the best we can do?

I ask for some ideas of things you feel might work and what do we offer? Wow

I know, let's change the subject to bombing. That'll help now won't it.

Edited: One of our brethren did suggest we could employ them as aid workers for the relief efforts the world is doing in sub-Saharan Africa. That's a good one. Are there any others who are willing to try some good suggestions to address improvements in blighted communities.

Edited 2: I want to apologize. I jumped and I probably should just keep quiet in the background. But I got a little discouraged that we cannot begin a discussion of things that we feel could be positive steps to move a community into a potentially better, contributing life. What I have heard about use of guns (guns ar built to kill) as a solution to the riots and riot conditions. appalls me. And as such when someone ask you for ideas to help and you respond by suggesting they get a gun, is very troubling to many of us. We, like you, would stop to think about the value of those who suggest that. Its not one against the world, it is and has for many thousands of years, "a society".

So come on everyone, are there some other ideas that we feel could be helpful within a society to address improvements for those who currently exist in tough communities?

Thannks in advance.

[rokytnji]

I ask for some ideas of things you feel might work and what do we offer? Wow

I don't live in England. I live in the desert. So I will probably be shot down for my ideas. But I consider them common sense.

For the ones available and fit for work:
Men and Teenagers:(any age)
No Brainer Jobs like Picking up roadside trash, Cleaning parks and rest areas, mowing roadside grass and weeds not covered by public works (for all above suggestios). Working with elderly as companions. Big Brothers for unsupervised Kids. Training animals for the disabled.

I can't cover all the ideas that would give someone with spare time a sense of worth and would exhaust them so they could sleep well at night. I'm not saying to pay them exorbitantly either. Any money brought in to buy food, medication, doctor care, is a plus when you are on a fixed income.

I have no idea on how you folks in England would implement something like this. In West Texas this is done with inmates/convicts/prisoners (free labour). I would love to see this implemented in the USA also (not the convict chain gang part of my post) and I would pick up trash on the side of the road or help a elderly person for $25.00 a day (6 hours) if I was unemployed with no job prospects ever pending. Every little bit helps.

$25.00 dollars a day buys needed groceries for someone on a fixed income. The work is there. Just takes some innovative thinking to implement new ideas.

[Bruce B]

rokytnji,

They are just poor people. Work them to point they drop at the end of each day. Of course, just common sense, right?

Why even pay them?

Your post was among the most heartless I've ever read.

I pray you receive in great abundance all you wish for the poor.

Bruce

~

[Bruce B]

What I have heard about use of guns (guns ar built to kill) as a solution to the riots and riot conditions. appalls me.

Gcmartin, we are predators. The human being is a tool maker and he's been making weapons of death long before he learned about exposives.

I think some of us [as in you] would be better off if we learned to have genuine respect for our fundamental natures.

I guess I want to say that I don't even see how some of your idealism even fits.

~

[rokytnji]

Being on the internet, Bruce. I can see how you took my post all wrong.

I am not talking about working poor people to death. I am talking about supplying alternatives to apathy from being unemployed with no place to earn even a dime.

I am not for brow beating the poor. I sympathize for their plight more than you think of me. But I expect misunderstandings in a forum.

I put my money where my mouth is when I constructed my
Quonset Hut steel Motorcycle Shop .

I hired 5 local high school boys at $500.00 each for 7 days work to help me erect the building. I was happy. The boys parents were happy. The boys were happy.

I am not the most articulate person when expressing my opinion. But I try and treat everyone fairly. I am just a hard working Linux using Biker with a GED. We live in the poverty level ourselves based on my income here. So I can see how one can take my posts all wrong. It broke me to build that shop by the way and took some more work on my part to get above water.

[Bruce B]

I have no idea on how you folks in England would implement something like this. In West Texas this is done with inmates/convicts/prisoners (free labour). I would love to see this implemented in the USA also (not the convict chain gang part of my post) and I would pick up trash on the side of the road or help a elderly person for $25.00 a day (6 hours) if I was unemployed with no job prospects ever pending. Every little bit helps.

How do convicts and poor people end up in the same paragraph?

Don't tell me, let me guess. Because you, like most of us are not professional writers with editors to review our submissions.

In my honest and somewhat informed opinion Texas prisons are among the worst in our nation.

Every little bit helps.

Helps who? The convict? The poor person? The State of Texas?

Never mind.

If you say you have normal empathy levels, I believe you, especially considering all the posts I've written which have been misunderstood.

~

[gcmartin]

THANKS @Rokytnji
A good idea. Canada was one of 1st nations to enact this. It helps no matter whether people agree or not. It helps.

[Bruce B]

Gcmartin,

Our government creates the problem by saturating the labor market with millions and millions of illegal immigrants.

Many of these immigrants come from countries with an average annual income of about 1,500 per year. And that is often for a lot of hard work.

Apart our importing poor people on a stressed economy there are other issues.

Such as minimum wage laws. Moreover state, county and city employers may not be allow to pay minimum because of requirements to pay prevailing wage.

These minimum wage and child labor laws were enacted decades ago because of the abuse on poor people.

Basically, pay people a respectable enough wage to at least meet the legal requirements or none receive the benefit of their labor.

Bruce

~

[gcmartin]

Basically, pay ...

Thanks for that @Bruce B.

I knew somehow you would provide a view that would be helpful. Noone of us are going to call you an "idealist" if you can you continue what you offer here. Like, what methods should be used to bring employment into those communities? or how do we fix an 20-25% unemployment problem within the poor communities in our developed countries?

Anything you, or anyone else here in this thread, offers can be helpful.

Here's another way of asking the same question(s) i have asked.
"Imagine" if you can that you have just graduated. You met all of your requirements until now. And you live in this community where you and maybe other family members have been unable to find work. You may be receiving some meager subsistence from the state, but, you really want to work so that you can buy things and live like those on TV do.
What do you think would help?
How do you thnk it should be implemented?
P.S. Remember, you have little to no money for transportation since it was all exhausted just getting you thru graduation.