Let me try to explain that a bit better. Yes Users do give feedback which help shape the end product... but if viewed in an work effort way... the work a user does compared to the work a dev does is not equal in any way. A dev first has to spend the time and effort to make a product. Then the user can use it and say "X" doesnt work. Then the dev has to spend more time and effort to figure out why it doesnt work and then try to fix it. And often there is the whole problem of having to figure out how to reproduce the users error in the first place.greengeek wrote:I think there are many cases where a user does have a lot to offer - because their feedback DOES shape the end product.Q5sys wrote:Users cant really collaborate with devs on a puppy version, because they have nothing to offer
So the work balance isnt equal. Its a basic example of a P vs NP problem with respect to time and effort of work involved. One is easy to preform and check (the users effort) the other takes far more time and effort (the devs).
Yes users are important, but users have to realize (I consider myself a user with respect to some puppy projects), get the devs effort only at that devs convenience. In the past we have had people around here who didnt quite understand this and felt that the devs owed the users their time and effort. (to the point that they made the claim that the devs were nothing without users)
I want to do everything I can to make sure that the community does not go down the road of subjugating devs when they are trying to bring about collaboration.
On a total side note... I always find it interesting that these requests for collaboration always seem to come from users with very little ability to develop (or perhaps willingness to develop). I do strongly feel that if a lead dev in the community would be the one pushing collaboration like this; it'd be taken much better by the other devs and might have a chance to work. But as long as these requests come from a person(s) who will gain more than they can offer such a project... I dont see it ever happening... and it continues to come across more as 'do it my way' than anything else.
If you read up on threads last year... there were a bunch of threads on this very issue, and it ripped people away from this forum. So much so that they created another forum for the purposes of trying to destroy this one.
I DONT want this discussion to head in that direction in anyway. And I dont feel anyone in this thread currently wants to go that route... so lets all try to keep this polite and on topic. lol
Continuing on topic...
And this comes back to my point of where these suggestions of collaboration come from. They arent coming from a dev who is saying "Hey I want to start up a community project and I want users to give me input on what they want." Its always coming from a person who wants things done their way, or perhaps said in a more politically correct manor, people who want devs to put aside their own opinions and allow the opinions of others to take priority.greengeek wrote:Collaboration only works if it is voluntary for all concerned. I am assuming that gcmartin is suggesting that certain specific goals be set and that any contributor be able to include or withdraw themselves at any time. This is just what the PLDF offers, but I think he is suggesting that there are other methods that assist the process in a material way.So what we'd have is a dev taking orders from dozens of people about how something should be done. And yes I used the word 'orders' on purpose... If the dev is just doing what other people want with no care for his own thoughts... then he/she isnt taking suggestions, they are taking orders.
So yea, its about being voluntary. But its always seems that its users asking for devs to volunteer. Any time you've got a project in mind. You need workers. In the *nix universe, the workers are the devs. So the devs have to be willing to volunteer. Users cant force devs to volunteer, and you can be sure that the devs wont allow themselves to be bullied into doing work. Afterall, as you've said it's gotta be totally voluntary.
As I explained in my first post, in the past (the SFS-load-on-the-fly project) devs have come together to work on a single issue that affects everyone. And it worked out great. But that project was lead (if you will) by a dev. It wasnt driven by a committee of users wanting the devs attention on their project.
If the collaboration request comes from a dev on a project... then it'll probably work, cause they are vested into it and are willing to put in the effort. If the request comes from a user who does not have much to offer... then it'll probably not ever work.
I myself would like someone to develope a better fluid menu system for *nix. Something along the lines of the interface for the defunct ELSE phone. But since I dont have the skill to do it myself, and I dont have the $ to hire a dev to code it for me... it probably wont get done. I cant expect someone to do the work I want done if they dont care about it.