Theists and Atheists help me with logic about God!

[greengeek]

Dopamine is generally involved in any rewarding activity.

Rather than being the chemical that drives pleasure, dopamine is the chemical that drives anticipation. It allows us to anticipate pleasure, but also allows us to anticpate pain. It is the chemical that allows us to evaluate if our circumstances and/or our actions are 'worthy', and to act with delayed gratification.

A policeman entering a building to resolve a hostage situation has no expectation of pleasure - his mind tells him he is likely to face bullets, knives, pain and potentially death, yet he 'decides' the goal is worthy and enters the building. This is dopamine in action.

Psychosis is driven by dopamine runaway - such that the person misunderstands reality and acts in ways that other people would reason to be foolish. In this regard, many great artists, inventors, priests etc etc are being driven by the dopamine system - their thought patterns are 'outside the box' and would be judged by the many to be psychosis.

What about the Catholic concept of 'purgatory'. Is that reality? Like many religious ideas many people would consider this to be a psychosis. Wars like Sarajevo, or Syria etc are fought because people decide to kill other people for the sake of their religious beliefs. Is God the winner in such circumstances? Or is this sort of religious fervour psychosis in action?

Because religious concepts are 'intangible' concepts, they are driven by the dopamine system, and therefore often subject to straying into the realm of psychosis. The psych wards are full of people who believe themselves to be on a mission from God.

[linuxbear]

If I ask a lot of atheists then many of them admit
that humans made the gods and not God made humans.

I am not sure I understand your question? Irrespective of whether or not a god(s) exist, humans create their gods in their own image. In order to understand a god, people will regard that entity in human terms. Ganesh is an Elephant, at least, sometimes so portrayed. But Ganesh too was "created in man's image" This is because Ganesh has characteristics which are human-like and thus easier for humans to understand. Humans anthropomorphise their gods. They can't help themselves. If computers ever reach the point where they might be regarded as a sentient being, that intelligence will be radically different and alien to us. Of course, in order to understand such an AI, we will anthropomorphise it and create it in "our image"

[linuxbear]

If I ask a lot of atheists then many of them
How can they lack belief in gods when they admitted
that humans made the gods. They they already belief
that humans made the gods. How can they lack a belief
in gods when they already belief that humans made the gods.

I am not sure I understand your question? Irrespective of whether or not a god(s) exist, humans create their gods in their own image. In order to understand a god, people will regard that entity in human terms. Ganesh is an Elephant, at least, sometimes so portrayed. But Ganesh too was "created in man's image" This is because Ganesh has characteristics which are human-like and thus easier for humans to understand. Humans anthropomorphise their gods. They can't help themselves. If computers ever reach the point where they might be regarded as a sentient being, that intelligence will be radically different and alien to us. Of course, in order to understand such an AI, we will anthropomorphise it and create it in "our image"

[rokytnji]

Church Helmet for us bikers'

It'll get ya closer to God.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet

What a conundrum

[greengeek]

Church Helmet for us bikers'

Really interesting article. I'm sure that the human brain, being a chemical computer, often "glitches" and seldom runs perfectly. Many of our experiences (including emotions of every kind...) are real only to ourselves, in the particular moment in which we experience them. I think that is very much the case with experiences of "God".

Cases of organic brain disease (whether longterm or momentary) often disrupt the synchronicity between different hemispheres or lobes, and generate strange sensations, emotions or non-rational artifacts that we sometimes incorporate into our catalog of "real" experiences.

[nooby]

linuxbear "I am not sure I understand your question?"

A good evidence for that my brain is confused about it all.

Re the Persinger helmet Dawkins is very skeptical to it.

It could be that the whole helmet and the levels it produces
are so low level that they never do what they think it does
and that the personal experiences reported would happen
even if the power supply would fail to power it without anybody
noticing any difference. It works on anticipation more than real fields.

[greengeek]

I dont know if any of us is truly able to use logic - we are all subject to the inherent structure of our brain chemistry...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -the-brain

Research also suggests that a religious brain exhibits higher levels of dopamine, a hormone associated with increased attention and motivation. A study showed that believers were much more likely than skeptics to see words and faces on a screen when there were none, whereas skeptics often did not see words and faces that were actually there. Yet when skeptics were given the drug L-dopa, which increases the amount of dopamine in the brain, they were just as likely to interpret scrambled patterns as words and faces as were the religious individuals.

[rokytnji]

Re the Persinger helmet Dawkins is very skeptical to it.

It could be

It could be covers a lot of turf like maybe, it might.

Things you see like in a pill commercial, a campaign promise, a lawyer selling his wares,
a used car salesman selling you a car.



It could be that the whole helmet and the levels it produces
are little green men with coke spoons pricking at your brain and inserting Purple Haze LSD and that the personal experiences reported would happen
even if the power supply would fail to power it without anybody
noticing any difference.

[nooby]

I dont know if any of us is truly able to use logic - we are all subject to the inherent structure of our brain chemistry...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -the-brain

Research also suggests that a religious brain exhibits higher levels of dopamine, a hormone associated with increased attention and motivation. A study showed that believers were much more likely than skeptics to see words and faces on a screen when there were none, whereas skeptics often did not see words and faces that were actually there. Yet when skeptics were given the drug L-dopa, which increases the amount of dopamine in the brain, they were just as likely to interpret scrambled patterns as words and faces as were the religious individuals.

that is an interesting find. On the other hand
a lot of very dedicated believers have no problem
seeing how other believers have false gods
so there suddenly they are as good at atheists
and skeptics to see the faulty logic of others.

On the other hand A lot of Marxists and extreme Left
are very good at finding fault in other political Left views
so they are vulnerable to self biased blindness but see
when others goes wrong.

But I find that research rather likely to see some factors involved.

Much appreciated that you shared it.

Could one jokingly make a new atheist definition?

Atheist a person that not only lack belief in gods
but also often lack the inner motivation to go along with
group suggestions on how to imagine barely possible gods and
then on how to make these barely possible gods come alive
in their mind and heart. Especially they lack the motivation
to open their heart to these barely possible gods

[jpeps]

I dont know if any of us is truly able to use logic - we are all subject to the inherent structure of our brain chemistry...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -the-brain

Everything you do involves brain chemistry. Prayer and meditation is known to effect brain functioning. Why else would people practice it?

Several studies have revealed that people who practice meditation or have prayed for many years exhibit increased activity and have more brain tissue in their frontal lobes, regions associated with attention and reward, as compared with people who do not meditate or pray

People who practice the piano also show changes in brain chemistry. People who are unhappy show changes in brain chemistry. Thinking changes brain chemistry. Being in a relationship changes brain chemistry.

So what does the research mean? At the moment, we do not have a clear way to connect all the dots. For now we can say that the religious and atheist brains exhibit differences, but what causes these disparities remains unknown.

Tools such as prayer or meditation are powerful tools for reducing anxiety and depression. Many studies collaborate this.

[greengeek]

Could one jokingly make a new atheist definition?
Atheist a person that not only lack belief in gods
but also often lack the inner motivation to go along with
group suggestions on how to imagine barely possible gods

Maybe two categories?
- Fixed-minded Atheists who do not believe in any gods, and do not ever open their minds to information
- Open-minded Atheists who do not believe in any gods, but allow themselves to consider new information.

'Hard Atheists' and 'Soft Atheists'?

[linuxbear]

Could one jokingly make a new atheist definition?
Atheist a person that not only lack belief in gods
but also often lack the inner motivation to go along with
group suggestions on how to imagine barely possible gods

Maybe two categories?
- Fixed-minded Atheists who do not believe in any gods, and do not ever open their minds to information
- Open-minded Atheists who do not believe in any gods, but allow themselves to consider new information.

'Hard Atheists' and 'Soft Atheists'?

A real athiest would not care about "imagining" a god which they do not believe in. The statement "man creates gods in his own image" simply means that in every religion, every god is portrayed in a manner in which humans can understand. This is not representative of any agnosticism in athiests. It is simply an observation that all religions, to a great extent are based on concepts which people can grok.
Here's another observation. There is very likely nothing which is original in Judaism, Islam or Christianity. All of the concepts or acts which any of these religions claim to be divine have appeared in other religions which preceded these three. It almost appears like the big three religions actually are an amalgam of ideas from other religions.
And another observation: recent studies show that the average athiest knows a LOT more about Christianity than the average Christian does.

[nooby]

Sadly hard and soft atheists already exists with other definitions

I would describe some atheists as caring about the inner workings
of a particular faith and they may also be interested in what makes
some religions very different and and why some seem to share some views
and still not get along well.

I could refer to these atheists as the curious on how it works for
the believer. What makes religion tic for them.

Then the other category of atheists they only care about the logic
of philosophy and the very narrow question Do you honestly believer
in the existence of a supernatural creator god or not?

Almost never does these logically obsessed atheists show any interest
in how does it work for the believers to keep faith in something odd
like invisible spirits .These logically obsessed atheists lack curiosity
on how it works, not curious on how they keep faith despite being
ridiculed and so on.

Not curious but often love to ridicule. Obsessed with logic atheists.

[Karl Godt]

Yeah, if we consider that the world is build and finished and we have nothing to do ( rokytnji wants to rebuild the infrastructure ) , one could mix
short stories ,
law books ,
song lyrics ,
news about the president/queen/king and interior/exterior
and paintings
and create a
THE ULTIMATE BOOK
.

So something
NEW
and
UPDATE
or
UPGRADE

to our bored lives happens.


Consider myself Hard Non-Theist, though I might be in a mood to listen to Non-Sense .
But don't expect me to join for a lowlevel rank
And for a highlevel position I suspect I am missing scruples

[jpeps]

Consider myself Hard Non-Theist, though I might be in a mood to listen to Non-Sense .

You've come to the right place

[musher0]

(...)
And for a highlevel position I suspect I am missing scruples

Hi, Karl.
Actually, you may be just the man!

We in Quebec have at this time a judicial commission on corruption that has
been accumulating evidence that having no scruples in high positions is the
way to go! (Where is the tongue in cheek icon?!)

BFN.

musher0

[nooby]

Yes it is a known fact. To be able to stay in power
you have to be that sort of person. Having no scruples
and to be prepared to send all your friends to hell

I don't want to promote " Non-Sense" either.

Either religion should be about something real
or it should be named "Live" Role Play or Politics.

I think of it as like setting up an Operating System
with different Graphic User Interfaces.

Is it Open Source. Do they try to lock you in.
do they protect you from the other OS

Do they protect you from being your own Root user.
Does the OS get upgraded? and so on.

TransHumanists some of them find it so likely
that the "Singularity" will happen that they even
accept to get ridiculed for setting date to 2045 or
thereabout.

I am skeptical to such predictions. Seems Non-Sense
at this time to even guess withing 100 or 200 years.

But I agree that most likely true AI will be so alien to us
that it will ruthlessly take over and make all of us slaves.

That is why I don't want to be atheist.
The logical atheists that I met online behaved
like Logical AI robots showing no mercy or empathy
with my human situation. I came through as too Alien to them.

Them having logic on their side could not be wrong.
Me totally failing to use logic obviously where very wrong.

[Karl Godt]

So religion is a mental local immigration to you .

I guess that's it for most people , to escape the recognition , that days are numbered and not everyone will be mentioned in history books 100 years later .
And some by craziness
and not by creative talents like the talent to

if ( AI <= ME ) write "HURRAY I am the BEST"
elif ( AI = ME ) write "HURRAY I am among the BEST"
else exit_without_saying_anything_and_thrash_the_damn_machine

[linuxbear]

Either religion should be about something real
or it should be named "Live" Role Play or Politics.

Religion is very real to those who believe.

There are many Christians in the US who are angry with science because they think it interferes and conflicts with their creation beliefs.These beliefs are so real to these folks that they want to rewrite science so it conforms to their religious beliefs. Religion is very real to others as well. Many Native Americans are also angry because science does not agree with some of the their religions too!

[jpeps]

Either religion should be about something real
or it should be named "Live" Role Play or Politics.

Religion is very real to those who believe.

There are many Christians in the US who are angry with science because they think it interferes and conflicts with their creation beliefs.These beliefs are so real to these folks that they want to rewrite science so it conforms to their religious beliefs. Religion is very real to others as well. Many Native Americans are also angry because science does not agree with some of the their religions too!

Some of that depends on the culture where a person lives and the level of education. There are negative downsides to relying on "science", such as the increasing numbers of people taking medications to cope. Unfortunately the "scientific" studies are promulgated by the pharm industry which lobbies the medical establishment. More urban areas have done a better job integrating spirituality with science. Techniques like yoga and meditation are recognized by the scientific community because they have been proven to be effective. Certainly more effective than medications, and they don't lead to dementia (of course, you probably won't find much about that minor issue).

Judging by what happens in government and on the world stage, obviously there's not much that could be considered as "rational" regardless of belief.