UEFI options for Puppy?

[B164D]

Hi, I'm a newish user usually using Windows7 or XP but have looked at Linux from time to time. I have Puppy Precise on a stick that I use for banking but recently tried Tahrpup and am loving it. My principal computer is an old laptop which is falling apart so I took advantage of the sales and got an Acer ES1-512 15.6 Inch Intel Celeron 8GB 1TB Laptop but the love of my life is in possession of it until my birthday in February. I then bought a 32GB usb 3.0 flash drive with the intention of running Tahrpup rather than preinstalled Win 8.1 and preloaded crapware.
I'm only just realising that there are potential problems since the laptop will have UEFI instead of BIOS. I understand that I should be able to get FatDog to work but can someone guide me towards what other options I might have?

[Ted Dog]

Here is a way to use Fatdog64s bootloader to boot other Puppylinux systems and with the common factory format requires only to copy files, which can be done easily with windows8.1

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=97141

In your case the iso file will need to be open by you and files copied and a match grub entry to boot. Examples GRUB lines are in the thread.

[Ted Dog]

Should bring out the reason I came up with this method was I crippled my expensive 32G usb flashdrive by reformatting it using Fatdog64 direct diskcopy method. I did not know that the simple reformating of some flashdrives cause it to lose performance and greatly reduced lifespan.
I bought it for the size and speed and it was pricy so DO NOT REFORMAT IT.
Hope I caught you in time to learn from my mistakes.

The 32G flashdrive was also so tiny it looked like a tick on the side of my laptop. Colored Black and quicky lost. I wish they made glow in the dark cases for those ultra tiny USB drives. Next one I get or if I find my old one its getting a hit of glow in the dark paint.

[B164D]

Many thanks Ted Dog - will post how I get on mid-February once I've got my paws on the new laptop.

[Ted Dog]

Heck may even be Alpha quality by then. Its a frustrating chicken and egg like problem with Win8. Also so few are pressed into NEEDing a new computer and with UEFI its a whole new method and ways of doing things.
Not as bad as some think but also horribly tricked by Microsoft to Windows8 own demise. I hope before you need it I can supply a help text or web page in next release. Windows does require a few stuff reconfigured ( mostly turned off ) So Windows can't hurt itself if you desire to run Linux between reboots of windows.
That is the only real gotta. Till Microsoft desides to revoke Fatdog64 secure boot keys. We reuse his keys to boot others puppylinux spins. Do not know how that works but use fatdog64 first ( currently keys are from v631 ) to register the key to your machine and from then on any other puppy spin seems to boot fine including 32bit ones.

[Galbi]

Sorry, just for clarification... the problems between Linux and UEFI, they exist because there is Windows 8 in the middle?
I mean, in a new computer without a pre-loaded OS (or without hard disk at all) is problematic to boot a Linux?

[Ted Dog]

matters if UEFI has a secured boot requirement and who the hardware manufacturer preinstalls key. So in theory no but in practice YES. RedHat secure boot UEFI has its own secure key. And a price for the hardware to match. Now if you are going to DYI motherboard, I believe it defaults to unsecured boot mode if NO OS is implemented. If you register Fatdog64 keys then that would be the Master Key on that board. And you can lock Microsoft out if wanted.
Fatdog64 bootloader which this is based skips the key exchanges if not needed.

[starhawk]

Within UEFI there is (always, AFAIK) an option to turn off "Secure Boot" (which is to say, Secure-For-Microsoft's-Wallet Boot ) and to enable "Legacy BIOS Emulation" (both will be /approximately/ those phrases) -- turn off Secure Boot and turn on Legacy BIOS and you're good to go you won't lose anything other than Windows, but that's not a serious loss to begin with...

[James C]

I build my own machines so have UEFI but no secure boot.......... I've had zero problems booting anything I choose on my UEFI boxes.

I'll pass on both secure boot and the Microsoft tax....

[Ted Dog]

second clarification UEFI and Linux have no issue. Windows thinks its the only thing that will ever boot up on the machine so is sloppy with cached disk reads layouts stored in a file on the harddrive. It does not reread the drive to see if stuff had moved or changed, therefore it has a high probably of data corruption. Add linux to the mix which will scan and repair or worse drop a tiny text file in root of each drive division to identity those that need fsck.ing in same area the information is stored, thereby changing disk layout.

[Ted Dog]

As you can see almost everyone can boot machine in unsecured mode to boot with UEFI. My Acer needed to change one setting and clear or set a password then the selection of secure or not secure boot UEFI was changible.

[Galbi]

About a year ago, I bought for my wife a new machine, with UEFI and no OS.

The first I did was to partition the HD and installed frugallly Puppy.

Haven't got any trouble and later installed a torrented Win7, no problem again.

The thing it's that I haven´t found some way to disable UEFI or to load Legacy BIOS. I´ll check it more carefully.

So potencial problems are only with Windows 8 and rebooting between Linux and Win, is this correct?

Older versions of Windows don't have this issue?

Thanks for your patience.

[rufwoof]

I followed the guidance in this document PXE - Easy start to install a PXE server on a old desktop running Slacko 5.3.3 and where the same initrd/vmlinuz files used to boot that Puppy are also served by the PXE

Turn secure boot off on a Windows box and provided the network card supports net booting (most do) its then just a matter of pressing the <esc> key during initial power on and then selecting the net boot option from the menu - and up pops puppy on the Windows box ...... Reboot to resume normal Windows working. No keys required and you don't even need to mount any of the Windows PC drives when Puppy is booted/running.

I'm tempted to get one of those small 'PC' (something like a Raspberry Pi) - low power (micro watts or whatever), and leave that always on (plugged into the LAN) with a Puppy PXE server installed/running on that to enable any household PC to net boot Puppy as/when required/desired.

[James C]

So potencial problems are only with Windows 8 and rebooting between Linux and Win, is this correct?

Older versions of Windows don't have this issue?

From my experiences, Windows 8/8.1 doesn't cooperate in a multi-boot environment with Linux or older Windows install. Something to do with the "fast-boot" mess.
Had Windows 8 installed on a older box,legacy bios (no UEFI) with Windows 7 and various Linux installs. Every time Windows 8 was booted it caused hard drive corruption leading to disk check when booting into something else.

Deleted Windows 8 .... for good.

There are workarounds but I don't like 8 so I removed it.

[Ted Dog]

Yes JamesC has experienced the brain dead behavior of Windows8 to self distruct. So have I when tring to dual boot with a hybrid BIOS and GPT hardrive almost had it working and bam Windows stuck in a repair loop.
I found to use Windows tools to shrink OS part and then linux to format it Plus turn off hybernate and fast boot settings. Also a hard shutdown each time to boot linix cleanly. Oh just do not actually use the OS partion at all that is why I shrunk it and used the left over for linux.

[B164D]

Well to give some feedback on my own post I am typing this on the new computer using Fatdog64 700 beta2 - and liking it. The Acer Aspire ES1-512 needed the bios set to Legacy and the boot order changed. I burned a cd for Fatdog and dvds for Linux Mint 17.1 and Ubuntu 14.04.1. Only Mint allowed the trackpad to work and even then not always so I bought a cheap usb mouse to get me up and running with Fatdog. Then installed Fatdog to a usb drive and have been happily playing ever since. Apart from the trackpad the only other issue I have is that I have to use the power button to switch the laptop off. Many thanks to all who have allowed me to get this far.

[otropogo]

As you can see almost everyone can boot machine in unsecured mode to boot with UEFI. My Acer needed to change one setting and clear or set a password then the selection of secure or not secure boot UEFI was changible.

Doesn't seem much is happening here on the UEFI. I had hoped to find a way to boot Puppy on my UEFI system. Some other posts I found suggested FatDog64 6series as the best bet. But after reading this thread, I have my doubts.


But in case I'm not the only one who hasn't found an easy way to get around UEFI with Puppy, I'd like to share my problems. Maybe the report can help somebody else, or maybe someone can even help me.

I certainly have had and continue to have, megaproblems running Linux on my AMI v204 UEFI Bios. I had to give up all my old PCs last Fall and was left only with my new ASUS N550JV with Windows 8 preinstalled.

I couldn't figure out how to boot lupu528, which I've been using since v.4x, and had to give it up. I burned Knoppix 7.4.0 to DVD and was able to boot from that, but with a lot of difficulty. I hated Win8.0, and "upgraded" to 8.1 as soon as possible, but see no advantage.

OTOH, since updating Windows to 8.1, I can no longer boot from the Knoppix Live-DVD. I didn't notice this right away, as I've been booting Knoppis from usb-flash for a year or so, so it may be only a coincidence. But I don't know of any other explanation, other than Windows updates. I haven't updated the AMI BIOS, although there were two newer versions already when I bought the laptop, precisely because I'm afraid the newer BIOS may block my ability to boot another OS altogether.


Of course I had to disable secure-flash in order to boot Knoppix at all. But
I haven't been able to find the option to return to the legacy BIOS on my AMI 204 UEFI BIOS. If someone out there has an AMI UEFI BIOS with this feature, please tell me where to find it.

Here's what happens on my cursed ASUS N550JV when I try to boot Knoppix form USB.

1. in order to access the BIOS, I have to depress the F2 key IMMEDIATELY, and KEEP HOLDING IT DOWN for 30 seconds or so, until I hear the optical drive being queried. Otherwise, Windows 8.1 will boot. There's no function key for selecting boot media on this machine.

2. this works ONLY if the system has been RESTARTED, never from a shutdown (power off) condition.

3. if the system has been powered down, the F2 key is ignored, and Windows boots. If I'm quick, I can interrupt the boot with Ctl-Alt-Del, get the power button on the display, choose restart, and hit and hold down the F2 key again.

Otherwise, I have to wait until the whole sorry Asus/Win8 desktop mess loads before navigating to the restart button. In that case, it will take me about two minutes before I can get the Knoppix boot prompt.

4. If restarting from Knoppix or from Windows8, after pressing and holding down the F2 key, the AMI UEFI BIOS displays. And I immediately cursor over to the Save&Exit menu, and down to the boot override listings.

If the Knoppix USB-Flash installation is properly inserted in the card reader or USB slot at the moment of restart, it will be automatically listed in both the Boot/boot priority and the Save&Exit/boot override menus at any position except #1.

5. With the cursor on the boot override entry "UEFI Generic" in the SAVE&EXIT drop down menu, I then hit ENTER. There is NO OTHER WAY to boot. With practice, I've learned to get to the Knoppix boot prompt in about 30 seconds this way.


There's no use in changing either setting to place it in the number #1 position, because the system will not save it, and will not boot it, even if you've just put Linux in the #1 priority boot position immediatly before hitting F10.

For booting from optical media, things are just impossible. The medium in the internal optical drive isn't recognized at all, unlike the USB card (I haven't tried booting from a USB burner).

There 's a prompt to manually create another boot option, but it's an illusion. The BIOS demands a name and the path, the name it gives the burner is API CD-ROM, but I doubt that makes any difference.

The system also shows the path for the burner, which is on SATA port2, while the hard drive with Windows is on SATA port4. So this should be easy.

However, when I try to enter the path in the field provided by the drop down option menu, , I find it already filled with a single option - the path to SATA port4 where Win8 resides, and it's uneditable.

If someone could tell me how to create and configure a Fat Dog 64 usb install on my system using tools available in Knoppix or Windows, I'd be very happy to try it. Knoppix is pretty impressive, but has lots of flaws, crappy documentation, and worse support (read practically none).

It's a great way to try out apps (those that install properly and work without handholding). I like the fact that I can get frequent signature updates to ClamAV and that I can easily install and often update graphics apps like GIMP, UFRaw, Rawstation and Darktable.

But I haven't found a way to install Seamonkey, and I don't fee comfortable navigating the WEB with Foxfire, Chromium, Iceweasel or KDE after years of using Seamonkey exclusively in Puppy.

So now I'm browsing with Seamonkey in Windows, and that doesn't feel safe either, just more comfortable than the alternatives.

[Ted Dog]

did you try? the UEFI zip file? unzip in windows8 copy to fat formated flashdrive. download fatdog64 700b2 or fatdog64 631 iso files and copy to same flashdrive. Reboot IN UEFI mode and select fatdog keys and select whichever iso file you downloaded. If you want to edit the grub you can add Knoppix ( with kernel flags )

[BarryK]

Within UEFI there is (always, AFAIK) an option to turn off "Secure Boot" (which is to say, Secure-For-Microsoft's-Wallet Boot ) and to enable "Legacy BIOS Emulation" (both will be /approximately/ those phrases) -- turn off Secure Boot and turn on Legacy BIOS and you're good to go you won't lose anything other than Windows, but that's not a serious loss to begin with...

I am not aware of reading that anywhere, about losing bootup of Windows.

I have recent experience on a new Acer laptop with win8.1, I changed to "legacy boot" and now it boots any pup, from CD or USB, or Windows. Just like the old BIOS days.

Unfortunately, I didn't keep the link that had the steps, with pictures.

You have to go somewhere in Windows and disable secure-boot, if it is enabled. I seem to recall, there is also something called "fast boot" that has to be turned off.

Then reboot, hold down the appropriate key, ESC, DEL, F1 or whatever, and up comes what we used to call the "bios setup".
The steps here differ, you will need some guidance to enable legacy boot, as it may be named differently.

Save, then with pup media inserted, reboot. There was a catch here, I recall, I think that I had to reboot, run the setup again, then reboot, before it "caught" and became permanent.

There are several online sites that have the steps to do this, some of which seem incomplete or not completely relevant for win8.1.
We need to find those links and promote the best of them.

[otropogo]

did you try? the UEFI zip file? unzip in windows8 copy to fat formated flashdrive. download fatdog64 700b2 or fatdog64 631 iso files and copy to same flashdrive. Reboot IN UEFI mode and select fatdog keys and select whichever iso file you downloaded. If you want to edit the grub you can add Knoppix ( with kernel flags )

your link coding for the UEFI zip file didn't work. Would you post it again, and check whether the link works? thanx

I'll look for it meanwhile. But maybe someone else would find it convenient to have the link right here with the directions for installation.