Congrats, USA!

[linuxcbon]

PaulBx1
99% of nations are not based on violence, or at least, they didn't slaughter natives and enslave Africans in large scale.
If you don't know what a democracy is, just look in Europe today, you will learn many useful things.
No, Obama is not a warmonger like Bush, that's for sure.
And since when are you a sheriff ? Do you also have the right to be a judge and a policeman ? So why do you need a gun ? News flash : civilized people don't need a gun and have a thing called "police" and "justice" and even "laws".

[bugman]

Bugman, you make me laugh. You bring up the thing about marriage, apparently thinking you have trapped me into bashing gays. When I don't do that, you make me out to be supporting child molestation.

i am not trying to do anything of the sort, i am trying to understand your concept of law, or frankly, any libertarian's concept of law

ron paul, who seems firmly opposed to abortion, has been able to bring out a clear statement on gay marriage, so i was curious

and since you said you wanted to be free to marry whom you chose, i thought that you must think kids were fair game as well--after all, they are people, and one could, under a libertarian system, marry them, right?

nothing personal, you might try answering the questions instead of reacting to them [or shooting at them]

[bugman]

I'm curious about this gun thing, this hoplophobia. A gun is a tool. Have you never tried shooting? Do you even have a clue about what this tool is for? Say you have a daughter, and some bad guys bust into your house, proposing to rape her. Are you just going to sit there and watch them? Or are you going to do something about it? Think of a gun as insurance, the cheapest insurance you'll ever buy, that PREVENTS harm rather than attempting monetary compensation after harm is done to you.

murder is a far worse crime than rape

by crime i mean a thing that weighs on one's conscience

i would not want to be responsible for the death of any person

killing someone "PREVENTS" nothing

btw, i think glendive must be libertarian already, as the local powers-that-be have taken away the 'rape kit', so that victims [most of whom are not actually raped in their own homes in front of their gun-toting family] cannot provide the proper evidence to find perpetrators

also, the daughter/wife/mother home rape scenario--how many times has a gun nut thrown this one out there as an argument? i've given up counting! does the nra supply you people with this thing, like an apologetic, or is it part of your own private collective fantasy world?

[37fleetwood]

PaulBx1
99% of nations are not based on violence, or at least, they didn't slaughter natives and enslave Africans in large scale.
If you don't know what a democracy is, just look in Europe today, you will learn many useful things.
No, Obama is not a warmonger like Bush, that's for sure.
And since when are you a sheriff ? Do you also have the right to be a judge and a policeman ? So why do you need a gun ? News flash : civilized people don't need a gun and have a thing called "police" and "justice" and even "laws".

your perceptions are skewed, all nations are based on violence. europe has been the starting point for the two biggest wars in the 20th century. the europeans also took slaughter and slavery to the rest of the world during the hey-day of colonialism. as for slavery and the killing of natives, it was the Dutch who were the biggest slavers, and the Spanish who were the biggest killers of North American Natives. if you want to look elsewhere there are the Australian Aboriginal peoples as well as the Maori of New Zealand. shall we go on along this line? maybe discuss India and French Indo China? maybe Hitler and the Jewish people of europe. how about Stalin, he was a nice guy right? he never killed anyone.
as for Europe being a democracy, you'd better read the Mastricht Treaty again. sorry Europe is run by a huge trade union (read that Corporations just like here). who did you vote for in the last election to the European Unions Parliament? oh yeah, they're appointed, you don't get to vote!
Obama increased the troop count by 17,000 in Afganistan, sorry, he's a WARMONGER!
finally America isn't the first Country that has felt that it was it's obligation to impose it's will on the rest of the world. lets see, Rule Brittania ring a bell? Napoleon, Hitler, Cesar, Alexander the Great, Nebuchadnezzar, Lenin, Mao, Hirohito? it is in our makeup to be bullies. from the playground to the world stage, man always tries to dominate his neighbor. the only people who say that it isn't true is either the bully trying to deny it or the wimp who is making excuses for getting beatup all the time.
Scott
P.S. I don't own a gun, nor do I vote.

[puppyluvr]

Hello,
What is freedom???
Bugman, your neighbors want the "freedom" to rock out and shoot fireworks at 2 am...You want "freedom" from the noise...
Paulbx1 wants the "freedom" to drive as fast as he wants ...
Highway laws DO serve a purpose, Paul...You have to remember that we live in a world full of idiots, who NEED regulation...
I own a gun, but I have a lot of friends who shouldnt..
I also own a motorcycle that will do 170mph...But I wouldnt recommend that everyone have one...
There are building inspectors so that we know things are done properly, and it wont fall on your family...Im not saying you couldnt built a sound structure, but I dont know, and neither does anyone else..What if any "Joe" could build a house, unchecked...Would you let your kids live in it????
Im against Government intrusion in our lives...
At the same time, Medical bills are crushing my family...
Legal bills from an unnecessary custody battle, (over kids that are already mine), are killing us..
The City says I have too many cars, and dont keep my lawn up enough..
But if I didnt live "in town" I could have as many cars as I want, and a 4 foot lawn if I want..
It is my choice to live here, so I put up with it...
It is my "freedom" to move if I choose..
No, we dont have the freedom we once had...
But enjoy what we have left, because soon even that will be gone....
@Paulbx1, I agree with you 99%, but the reality is that the system has created a bunch of SHEEP that need "guidance" ..
My Dad lives right near Ruby Ridge, and the tragedy that happened there has had a strong impact on people, as it should...
We need some form of Government, just not this one...
The US is not a democracy, its a capitalist oligarchy..
Our "Royal Family" are the "one, the five, the twenty, the fifty, ect...

[puppyluvr]

Hello,
What is freedom???
Bugman, your neighbors want the "freedom" to rock out and shoot fireworks at 2 am...You want "freedom" from the noise...
Paulbx1 wants the "freedom" to drive as fast as he wants ...
Highway laws DO serve a purpose, Paul...You have to remember that we live in a world full of idiots, who NEED regulation...
I own a gun, but I have a lot of friends who shouldnt..
I also own a motorcycle that will do 170mph...But I wouldnt recommend that everyone have one...
There are building inspectors so that we know things are done properly, and it wont fall on your family...Im not saying you couldnt built a sound structure, but I dont know, and neither does anyone else..What if any "Joe" could build a house, unchecked...Would you let your kids live in it????
Im against Government intrusion in our lives...
At the same time, Medical bills are crushing my family...
Legal bills from an unnecessary custody battle, (over kids that are already mine), are killing us..
The City says I have too many cars, and dont keep my lawn up enough..
But if I didnt live "in town" I could have as many cars as I want, and a 4 foot lawn if I want..
It is my choice to live here, so I put up with it...
It is my "freedom" to move if I choose..
No, we dont have the freedom we once had...
But enjoy what we have left, because soon even that will be gone....
@Paulbx1, I agree with you 99%, but the reality is that the system has created a bunch of SHEEP that need "guidance" ..
My Dad lives right near Ruby Ridge, and the tragedy that happened there has had a strong impact on people, as it should...
We need some form of Government, just not this one...
The US is not a democracy, its a capitalist oligarchy..
Our "Royal Family" are the "one, the five, the twenty, the fifty, ect...

[37fleetwood]

so what do you think about this? Obama is refusing to accept repayment of the T.A.R.P. money given to the banking institutions so he can retain control over them.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123879833094588163.html

[puppyluvr]

[bugman]

oh, those silly but meaningless graphics are surely helpful

i especially like the nazi flag, nice considering their well-known history of racial tolerance

as far as control of the banks goes, i really think that the bankers have proven their incompetence and greed

nationalize everything, hell, globalize everything, i own nothing already, maybe if it all becomes public property i'll at least get a chance to at least USE some goddamn thing or another

i need new glasses, this prescription is 12 years old and the frames are glued together and crooked, i get headaches and weird flashes, cannot afford new ones

nationalize the optometrists and opticians next!

strangle the last banker with the guts of the next lawyer? nah, just make them live like regular people for a change, exultant in an eight-cent-per-pound price reduction in rice

why are you people standing up for the rights of billionaires? people who would squash you like bugs if given half a chance?

and you're complaining about obama for all the wrong reasons--he is not doing NEARLY enough

profit is theft, and you seem to like it

[the home invader paul fears is a ceo]

[37fleetwood]

you're funny, first they're bastards for needing the money, then they're bastards for trying to pay it back! also I think the banks were mandated to have a certain percentage of their loans be sub-prime whether they wanted them or not. you might look to the Clintons for that little piece of work.
my feeling about the rich as you put it is not nearly as communistic as yours, I think that if you can make money fairly and legally you should be commended. the reason this thread is kinda bashing Obama is because it was supposed to be a thread about Obama. point me to the bush/Cheney thread and I'll bash them a bit too. my main point is that just because Obama is black, doesn't make him some sort of genius with impeccable integrety, fact is he's turning out to be as bad or worse for the country as the rest of them! you guys just can't seem to see that what he's doing is really wrong. socialism always leads to tyranny.
I'll look to see what the citizenship requirements for China are so you can get your glasses fixed...comrade.

Scott

[bugman]

anyone who thinks it's better to be hungry and sick [but be able to complain freely about it] than to have access to food and medical treatment and not be able to complain [but what would you not be complaining about?] needs to be hungry and sick more often

the two greatest freedoms suffered by americans are the freedoms to be sick and hungry

and, as far as i can tell, the two greatest freedoms cherished by americans are the freedoms to be obnoxious and murderous

obama is no socialist--if he were, i would have voted for him

[edited to note that i do not believe that canadians or europeans have actually surrendered any worthwhile freedoms in their quest for social equality]

[puppyluvr]

bugman,

the two greatest freedoms suffered by americans are the freedoms to be sick and hungry

I Agree 100%..

the two greatest freedoms cherished by americans are the freedoms to be obnoxious and murderous

This, I would change to:
the two greatest freedoms cherished by americans are the freedoms to
Possess and Control....

anyone who thinks it's better to be hungry and sick [but be able to complain freely about it] than to have access to food and medical treatment and not be able to complain [but what would you not be complaining about?] needs to be hungry and sick more often

On the surface, a great statement...however...
Have you ever considered that LETTING you be sick and hungry TEACHES YOU not to complain...

"Poverty is the Whip with which the masses are kept in line"....

[bugman]

actually, i've considered that being sick and hungry in america is considered to be your own damn fault, and that gives everyone else the right to ignore your complaints

with the inequality of wealth in this country, i don't know how anyone can actually believe that, but they do

if they stopped believing the capitalist dream, then they would never be allowed the chance to realize their place amongst 'the chosen few' who own nearly everything

[faith-based economics]

[bugman]

i would also like to address the question of inconsistency raised earlier

i am in fact so, this is because i hold two ideas in my head

my ideal system, which i believe to be unattainable, a fantasy, but which occasionally breaks through into discourse [for example, i do not believe in national sovereignty on international issues such as trade]

and, the u$ as it really is, and is likely to remain [run by rich people, for rich people]

i suspect some of us have a problem keeping fantasy and reality separate, hindered perhaps by visual aids such as the photoswapping of obama for mao

a number of these poor souls are gathering 3 blocks from my house next wednesday, to drink tea or something, under the delusion that by doing their political fantasy will come true

[a government that would turn our prisons into private corporate slave labor camps, double our utility rates while keeping the same quality of service, and turn our wilderness into a forest of toll booths on our highways]

oh yeah, when you stop paying those taxes, there is one class of people that will shoulder the burden for you--the poor, who will not be able to afford to live in a nation where everything is measured by profit

until you kill them all, and take their place . . .

[Aitch]

Hey Bugsie

Can I recommend a good book for you to get hold of?

The Selfsufficient-ish Bible



http://www.amazon.co.uk/Selfsufficient- ... iate_id=18

Source: http://selfsufficientish.com/

Might help with the food/poverty thing....?

Aitch

[bugman]

book's a bit pricey for me at the moment, but will have a go at the site

sadly i live in a region with nearly no growing season, crappy soil, and in a house with very little soil or room indoors

fortunately i actually LIKE rice and beans

i will probably die some day from eating too few fruits and vegetables

but i will not live forever if i eat more of them

fair trade

[Aitch]

book's a bit pricey for me at the moment....

OK, sorry, ..... - Rice'n'beanz mmmm

Here's a view of Government some people (including the current Government!) don't understand...

http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/

Aitch

[PaulBx1]

99% of nations are not based on violence, or at least, they didn't slaughter natives and enslave Africans in large scale.
If you don't know what a democracy is, just look in Europe today, you will learn many useful things.
No, Obama is not a warmonger like Bush, that's for sure.
And since when are you a sheriff ? Do you also have the right to be a judge and a policeman ? So why do you need a gun ? News flash : civilized people don't need a gun and have a thing called "police" and "justice" and even "laws".

Scott answered much of this. Virtually every nation is based on violence; virtually every current dominant group of people displaced some other group. England is pretty typical; Celts first (or maybe they displaced others), then Romans, then Angles and Saxons, then Vikings, then Normans. Even now the effects of this displacement and dominance are still played out in Northern Ireland. Don't get me wrong, American treatment of Indians was shameful and disgusting, but keep in mind the real killers there (besides disease) was the government, both the Army and the Bureau of Indian Affairs which essentially starved the Indians.

What's this about judge and policeman? I need a gun for protection. Depending on cops for that is silly: "when seconds count, a cop is only minutes away". Unless you are black, then they are hours away. Again, if you are willing to see your family murdered while you talk on the phone with a dispatcher, that's your call. I'm not willing to do that. As far as I'm concerned, the only civilized people are armed people. We can disagree about who is more civilized, I suppose.

murder is a far worse crime than rape

See this definition of murder. You are using the wrong word.

i would not want to be responsible for the death of any person

Coulda fooled me.

also, the daughter/wife/mother home rape scenario--how many times has a gun nut thrown this one out there as an argument? i've given up counting! does the nra supply you people with this thing, like an apologetic, or is it part of your own private collective fantasy world?

Guns are useful for stopping all sorts of crimes, of course. This one is a good example because it separates the men from the twits, though. Anyone willing to see a wife or daughter raped, rather than doing what it takes (which is very little, in this country) to prevent it, is not the sort of person that one can admire.

I likened it to insurance, very cheap insurance. Most people buy fire insurance for their homes. Are they paranoid? Being a crime victim is quite a bit more likely than having your house burn down.

As to freedom, you guys have pretty strange ideas what it means. It means doing what you want, except for things that directly harm another. I find it very strange this bothers some people. Wouldn't you rather do what you want to do, without being controlled by others? Yes, some people will make bad choices. "C'est la vie!" If you become a heroin addict, that is your problem, not mine. Anyway heroin addicts are clearly worse off with our idiotic "War on Some Drugs" than they would be without it.

Puppyluvr, I live in a state that has half a million people, not much smaller than Germany which has 80 some million people. Yet Germany has no speed limits on the autobahns. We certainly don't need speed limits in Wyoming between the towns. Europeans are also experimenting with removing traffic signals from intersections; they have found that not only does traffic flow better, but there are fewer accidents!

the reality is that the system has created a bunch of SHEEP that need "guidance"

That they have, but the way to make people responsible is to give them responsibility. Not to treat them more and more like children.

Bugman, if you need money, why don't you go out and get a job? It's not like you sound like an idiot or something. Let me guess, can't keep a job once you have it? That's what happens when you think employers are evil bastards exploiting you. Don't think that way, you'll do fine. Envy is a vice; stop indulging in it.

when you stop paying those taxes, there is one class of people that will shoulder the burden for you--the poor,

So... not being able to accept goods stolen from one is "shouldering one's burden"? I feel like Alice in Wonderland.

[rcrsn51]

I likened it to insurance, very cheap insurance. Most people buy fire insurance for their homes.

On the other hand, I don't have to worry about my fire insurance policy falling into the hands of my children and accidentally killing someone. Or being stolen and used in some other crime. Or being smuggled into another country by drug gangs.

[37fleetwood]

I likened it to insurance, very cheap insurance. Most people buy fire insurance for their homes.

On the other hand, I don't have to worry about my fire insurance policy falling into the hands of my children and accidentally killing someone. Or being stolen and used in some other crime. Or being smuggled into another country by drug gangs.

your argument has no real merit, a hundred yearws or more ago every house had guns, in fact children were taught at a young age to use these guns. you know what the result was? no children died because of accidental shootings, no one invaded your house without the fear you'd shoot them, and we didn't have the gang or drug problems we do now. why don't you smarten up and teach your children the proper uses of guns and their dangers so they will know what to do if they run across one. also if guns are novel in your childs life he will be more intrigued by them as forbidden fruit. in the past they used to have the fire fighters show up at your local schools to talk to your children about the danger of fire, now folks like you think the best way to fight the chances of their kid starting a fire is to ban cigarette lighters. not only does this not work, it shoves your responsibility to your children off on someone else. please teach your children what they need to learn yourself rather than expecting the government to do it for you, we already know they don't have our best interests at heart.
thanks,
Scott