boycott systemd

[anikin]

greengeek,

With iguleder's explanation above, I see it a bit differently. They (the gatekeepers) didn't listen. It was iguleder, who made the change. My opinion was heard by iguleder, he disabled icanhazip in his Librepup fork of Woof-CE, using his *authority* made a commit to the master branch (initially, I was unsure of this) and the change propagated to the whole project. Technically it got rammed through, it didn't come as a result of a transparent discussion. Unfortunately you and I lack that power and authority to make changes/commits to git/Woof-CE. If something in our view is wrong with Puppy, we can only voice our opinion and nag the devs to the best of our abilities. I sincerely tried my best, show respect, restraint and avoid escalation whenever possible. Others would have done a better job, I'm sure, but there wasn't much competition, as you know. Maybe, I should have kept quiet ... disable the damn thing in every new pup and be happy. Why should I care about others, about noobs and their unwashed, little brothers and sisters?

[bark_bark_bark]

[*icanhazip is indefensible* - I warned both of you a long time ago, you didn't listen.

Actually, they did listen. It took time, but the end result is what you would have wanted (unless I am mistaken). The structure of woof is flexible and publicly available for others to have direct input into without waiting for "devs"to do their thing. (unless I am mistaken).

Decisions have to be made or else nothing progresses - this forum offers an opportunity for those who "have an opinion" to alter the perspective of "those who develop". That opportunity is very valuable but it does not constitute a "directive".

I don't think we should be too critical of devs when we have an equal opportunity to do what they do. Our opinion remains just an opinion unless we take action ourselves.

anikin is like one of those people that just complain, without really providing any solutions.

[cimarron]

Is there another place this discussion could happen instead of the systemd thread?

[L18L]

Is there another place this discussion could happen instead of the systemd thread?

Yes it is, see http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 937#873937

[gcmartin]

Wrong place. Moving my post to WOOFCE thread.

[greengeek]

.... is like one of those people that just complain, without really providing any solutions.

I think his complaints were fair, and others shared concerns too, but I just don't think we should insult devs for choices we don't like.

It's a bit like the arguments over systemd - the code branches off in whatever direction is determined by the lead devs, and the user either has to accept it or create a new direction and fork it for themselves. If the devs are paid staff then it is fair to get upset about their choices. Given that they are not paid they have to have some leeway to make decisions that may be unpopular.

People can boycott systemd if they choose to do so. And they can boycott Puppy too. Or reshape it exactly how they want it. If we want to avoid being led by the nose (like systemd followers) we have to upskill to ensure that we ourselves are capable of creating and maintaining those alternatives.

The fact that BK posted about the use of eudev as a systemd alternative shows that there is a future without systemd. I am sure the best way to implement that will be up for discussion and probably vary from pup to pup.

[James C]

A conference by a system administrator interrupted by Lennart Poettering .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfKGXQn ... c2ZRuV26kR

[s243a]

A conference by a system administrator interrupted by Lennart Poettering .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfKGXQn ... c2ZRuV26kR

I enjoyed the video.Here is another amusing video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WipM3SAYqK4

[rufwoof]

Just a observation as I know next to nothing about systemd and alternatives. As a end-user however I switched over from Tahr to DebianDog Jessie a month or so ago and initially was wasn't using the systemd type boot, but after having tried it a couple of weeks back I've since stayed with it as it boots/shuts-down quicker and generally seems to run better.

[James C]

Still running Devuan Jessie......

Code: Select all

root@nosystemd:/home/james# inxi -Fxx
System:    Host: nosystemd Kernel: 3.16.0-4-amd64 x86_64 (64 bit gcc: 4.8.4) 
           Desktop: N/A dm: lightdm Distro: Devuan GNU/Linux 1 
Machine:   Mobo: ASRock model: N68-S UCC
           Bios: American Megatrends v: P1.70 date: 03/03/2011
CPU:       Dual core AMD Athlon 64 X2 5200+ (-MCP-) cache: 1024 KB
           flags: (lm nx sse sse2 sse3 svm) bmips: 10848 
           Clock Speeds: 1: 2712 MHz 2: 2712 MHz
Graphics:  Card: NVIDIA GT218 [GeForce 210] bus-ID: 02:00.0 chip-ID: 10de:0a65
           Display Server: X.org 1.16.4 drivers: nouveau (unloaded: fbdev,vesa)
           tty size: 80x24 Advanced Data: N/A for root
Audio:     Card-1 NVIDIA MCP61 High Definition Audio 
           driver: snd_hda_intel bus-ID: 00:05.0 chip-ID: 10de:03f0 
           Card-2 NVIDIA High Definition Audio Controller 
           driver: snd_hda_intel bus-ID: 02:00.1 chip-ID: 10de:0be3 
           Sound: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture v: k3.16.0-4-amd64
Network:   Card: NVIDIA MCP61 Ethernet
           driver: forcedeth port: d480 bus-ID: 00:07.0 chip-ID: 10de:03ef
           IF: eth0 state: up speed: 100 Mbps duplex: full 
           mac: 00:25:22:61:55:fc
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 1250.3GB (0.2% used)
           ID-1: /dev/sda model: WDC_WD10EZEX size: 1000.2GB serial: WD-WCC1S6306549 temp: 27C
           ID-2: /dev/sdb model: ST3250318AS size: 250.1GB serial: 9VMALT2B temp: 29C
Partition: ID-1: / size: 49G used: 2.7G (6%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sda15 
Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: 35.0C mobo: N/A gpu: 34.0 
           Fan Speeds (in rpm): cpu: N/A 
Info:      Processes: 143 Uptime: 16 min Memory: 288.3/3963.5MB 
           Init: SysVinit v: 2.88 runlevel: 2 default: 2 Gcc sys: 4.9.2 
           Client: Shell (bash 4.3.301 running in xfce4-terminal) inxi: 2.1.28 

[cimarron]

I just found Manjaro-OpenRC which is the easiest and best systemd-free distro I've seen so far. James C posted about it recently, but I got to it via http://systemd-free.org/

Really nice looking and fast. The Xfce desktop uses only 150M RAM (less for the Openbox desktop) on my old P4 laptop. Based on Arch, which I never tried before, but am very impressed with now. Rolling release, so no major upgrades and always up to date. The "stable" version of Manjaro is just two weeks behind cutting-edge Arch. I found Palemoon, Avidemux, and Skype in the repository, which are all unavailable in Debian repositories. And no problem running as root (except for the warnings...) Very well done distro.

Manjaro-OpenRC available here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/manjaro-openrc/

Feature comparison with systemd: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Comparison_of_init_systems

[l0wt3ch]

Defying systemd - or how to do wrong things the right way - Klaus Knopper

[James C]

https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/2 ... f0.en.html

As promised two years ago with the first declaration of Exodus from
Debian, today we can proudly state: we do not go gentle into that good
night.

Now has come the time to announce the Beta release of Devuan.

Debian GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd, on its way to
become much more than that. This Beta release marks an important
milestone towards the sustainability and the continuation of Devuan as
an universal base distribution.

Today Devuan Jessie provides continuity as a safe upgrade path from
Debian Wheezy and a flawless switch from Debian Jessie avoiding most
of the problems introduced by systemd.

[James C]

https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/2 ... f0.en.html

As promised two years ago with the first declaration of Exodus from
Debian, today we can proudly state: we do not go gentle into that good
night.

Now has come the time to announce the Beta release of Devuan.

Debian GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd, on its way to
become much more than that. This Beta release marks an important
milestone towards the sustainability and the continuation of Devuan as
an universal base distribution.

Today Devuan Jessie provides continuity as a safe upgrade path from
Debian Wheezy and a flawless switch from Debian Jessie avoiding most
of the problems introduced by systemd.

Fresh install.

https://devuan.org/

Code: Select all

james@devuan:~$ inxi -Fxx
System:    Host: devuan Kernel: 3.16.0-4-amd64 x86_64 (64 bit gcc: 4.8.4) 
           Desktop: N/A dm: slim Distro: Devuan GNU/Linux 1 
Machine:   Mobo: ASUSTeK model: M5A97 LE R2.0 v: Rev 1.xx
           Bios: American Megatrends v: 2601 date: 03/24/2015
CPU:       Hexa core AMD FX-6300 Six-Core (-MCP-) cache: 12288 KB
           flags: (lm nx sse sse2 sse3 sse4_1 sse4_2 sse4a ssse3 svm) bmips: 42142 
           Clock Speeds: 1: 1400 MHz 2: 1400 MHz 3: 1400 MHz 4: 1400 MHz
           5: 1400 MHz 6: 1400 MHz
Graphics:  Card: NVIDIA GT218 [GeForce 210] bus-ID: 01:00.0 chip-ID: 10de:0a65
           Display Server: X.Org 1.16.4 drivers: nouveau (unloaded: fbdev,vesa)
           Resolution: 1440x900@59.89hz
           GLX Renderer: Gallium 0.4 on NVA8
           GLX Version: 3.0 Mesa 10.3.2 Direct Rendering: Yes
Audio:     Card-1 NVIDIA High Definition Audio Controller 
           driver: snd_hda_intel bus-ID: 01:00.1 chip-ID: 10de:0be3 
           Card-2 Advanced Micro Devices [AMD/ATI] SBx00 Azalia (Intel HDA) 
           driver: snd_hda_intel bus-ID: 00:14.2 chip-ID: 1002:4383 
           Sound: Advanced Linux Sound Architecture v: k3.16.0-4-amd64
Network:   Card: Realtek RTL8111/8168/8411 PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet Controller
           driver: r8169 v: 2.3LK-NAPI port: d000
           bus-ID: 02:00.0 chip-ID: 10ec:8168
           IF: eth0 state: up speed: 100 Mbps duplex: full 
           mac: 1c:87:2c:5a:bb:e2
Drives:    HDD Total Size: 1120.2GB (0.2% used)
           ID-1: /dev/sda model: KINGSTON_SV300S3 size: 120.0GB serial: 50026B7256076A16
           ID-2: /dev/sdb model: WDC_WD10EZEX size: 1000.2GB serial: WD-WCC3F6XAKRLY
Partition: ID-1: / size: 34G used: 2.6G (8%) fs: ext4 dev: /dev/sdb9 
Sensors:   System Temperatures: cpu: 16.8C mobo: N/A gpu: 35.0 
           Fan Speeds (in rpm): cpu: N/A 
Info:      Processes: 155 Uptime: 31 min Memory: 428.9/15987.9MB 
           Init: SysVinit v: N/A runlevel: 2 default: 2 Gcc sys: N/A 
           Client: Shell (bash 4.3.301 running in xfce4-terminal) inxi: 2.1.28 
james@devuan:~$ 

[James C]

.

[chillinfart]

I tried Parabola Linux (Arch based) due to a nice optimized Intel driver for my netbook, the ****ing system was hanging every 30 seconds thanks to a bug in a service (logind). Few documentation available about the bug, after finding the quirky service. Once i disabled some text in logind.conf, i can get rid of the setup.

Finally i gave up with Parabola after a minor thing (bad support for my Ralink RT3090 unlike Tahrpup), but thanks to this i found how systemd works since the POV from a final user.

[jamesbond]

How to crash systemd in one tweet (seriously!) - reported 3 days ago. The bug has existed for over two years.

If you think "but ... but ... every software has a bug, why is systemd singled out!", then please read the linked article to see why it is indeed so (hint: this isn't the only reason-defying bugs).

[Elena]

For a non-Systemd Arch Linux, I can recommend Obarun Linux

It's already my favorite Linux (besides Puppylinux). A new .ISO will be out in just a few days...

EDIT: New ISO got released.

[rufwoof]

For a non-Systemd Arch Linux, I can recommend Obarun Linux

It's already my favorite Linux (besides Puppylinux). A new .ISO will be out in just a few days...

How quickly do security updates comes through from Obarun? Debian and its SystemD took a day for recent Chromimum and Openssl security fixes to drop into my system. How stable and extensive is Obarun's repository? If I install Openbox, will a version of Blender that works well with that version of Openbox also be installed (python libs etc.)?

[Elena]

Thanks for your interest, @rufwoof.

Obarun is a rolling release using the Arch Linux repo (stable, but of course you can add testing etc.) The package lists of Arch as well as from the AUR repo are well maintained and update several times a day. Blender and Openbox should be up-to-date (using those myself too). Dependencies will install together with the the main application, as expected.

Yet Obarun also has it's own package list. Mainly with non-Systemd-packages and their different, reorganized init system (Runit or S6). I'm using ObarunS6_x86_64-v0.0.6.

For questions, the main dev's of Obarun on Github, Eric and bit, are ususally on IRC (irc.freenode.org, #obarun) and on their forum. Both are quite helpful and friendly.

You won't get Wine atm (because it's strictly non-systemd). For this need I'm booting Puppy Linux.
With some configuration yourself (browser, different Window Manager, implementing some PuppyLinux apps, etc.), it's a very good distribution.