Establishing a formal community

[Pizzasgood]

Cheese is an important part of a balanced life.

@Raffy: actually, I'm a junior now. Time flies when you're doing homework...

Scholarships would be nice, but I think Puppy himself would need it more than I do. I have two good hands and two good feet, and a nice thick melon on top.


Hosting fees for a teleconference!? Maybe I have been in Linux too long, but I feel certain there are free methods. Like I said, I haven't messed with VoIP yet, but I thought Skype was free for Skype->Skype calls?

If nothing else, shouldn't be that hard to write our own basic software. Maybe it wouldn't be as well optimized, but it would get the job done.

[ttuuxxx]

Cheese is an important part of a balanced life.

@Raffy: actually, I'm a junior now. Time flies when you're doing homework...

Scholarships would be nice, but I think Puppy himself would need it more than I do. I have two good hands and two good feet, and a nice thick melon on top.


Hosting fees for a teleconference!? Maybe I have been in Linux too long, but I feel certain there are free methods. Like I said, I haven't messed with VoIP yet, but I thought Skype was free for Skype->Skype calls?

If nothing else, shouldn't be that hard to write our own basic software. Maybe it wouldn't be as well optimized, but it would get the job done.

Well I haven't tried voice on Linux either, When I did use a mic for voice chat on windows, I would use, Yahoo chat, Msn messenger, and Paltalk they all had free voice and MSN had free video also, Paltalk you had to pay $20 a year for video, So a quick fix could be yahoo chat on wine? If someone wanted to make a working package that would interesting to try out. I never use wine either. On yahoo you can make your own chat room also.
ttuuxxx
ttuuxxx

[HairyWill]

wow
I've managed to hold back from posting for 5 pages.
Thanks tombh for starting this thread.

I think that losely formed dynamic teams is the only way that most people will contribute, no-one will tolerate being told what to do. It is possible for this to sit inside the formal structure of a coop.

I agree that subversion is crucial. I know that sourceforge is out as a repository for the whole iso. Now that caneri has a root shell on a box would it be possible to put the iso on that? I presume the basic structure is just a directory each for initrd and pup_xxx.sfs.

I think that the bar needs to be set fairly high for getting write access to this repo with some sort of apprenticeship/mentoring/sponsorship scheme for others to gain trust for write privileges. This may mean saying to the odd person, "you are not good enough yet" which is hard, though this probably is just implicit in no-one responding to a request for sponsorship. My personal choice would be to only give write access to someone who had previously released a successful puplet with significant modifications to initrd. I should note that would count me out. I believe that leaves MU, PG and Dougal, any others?

[Pizzasgood]

I know that sourceforge is out as a repository for the whole iso. Now that caneri has a root shell on a box would it be possible to put the iso on that? I presume the basic structure is just a directory each for initrd and pup_xxx.sfs.

I think so. Depends on how much space he has. Probably should be fine; I tend to not realize just how cheap storage has gotten nowadays. For an SVN repo to hold the extracted Unleashed tree, we would probably need around 800 megabytes upfront. That would grow over time, but SVN stores changes as changes, not entire copies, so that would help a little. On the other hand, it stores all the changes, so they can build up. Especially if we recompile Puppy from source - I think that would add a significant amount. So over several years we could need several gigabytes.

Another thing is bandwidth. In general I doubt that would be an issue. But doing an initial checkout of the entire tree would be pretty hefty - 800 megs a pop. So, what would need to be done is to download the packages from the package server, where they're also compressed. Then extract them. Then run a script to move things around slightly into whatever structure we use for the SVN, and to add some "initial" SVN settings so that you can just run 'svn update' to bring it up to date with the server. That script could be part of the unleashed-core package, or a separate similar one, and would be updated with each version of Puppy (we could automate it's generation). That way it avoids putting a burden on the SVN server.

Of course, you don't actually need to have the entire tree on your machine, only the parts you're working on. But if you want to build a test ISO, or if you're working on something spread across multiple packages, it would be more convenient. So in my case, I'd probably set up the entire tree on my PC, but if I'm away from home, I'd just checkout the package I'm working on.

[Caneri]

HI PG,Will and All,

Both new servers will be very fast, but there may be a space issue (hard drives are smaller), so for a time I will need to have developers delete their old,unused,dated files and delegate what will be allowed on the new setup to fit active files on the drive. This delegation will be best done in the community so to whoever doesn't get enough space...we will need to put it to the team to decide.

The space issue will need to be addressed if the puppylinux.ca project is to morph into another stream. Then a discussion on how to best use the new servers will be needed. What I mean about devs trimming the files is that if someone has an alpha or beta that has gone final then delete these old files or if a guy is using .ca for his entire project then we need to find a way to fit these files onto the new drives....hmmm...this can get touchy but a consensus for the .ca project will need to be handled soon as a community decision or I will decide myself which is not my first choice for sure.

Remember I need people's skill here to be able to do the things that are needed...so please chime in if someone has the knowledge and time to run with the new changes coming....sorry but I'm a tad behind on some skills that will be needed.

I will continue my quest for proper sponsorship to enhance the original account to include more control and access to admins...let's hope

Best,
Eric

[Pizzasgood]

With regard to servers, I am a user and not an administrator. So I can't help you much there. By "use" I mean I can write PHP, Perl, and shell scripts to do things like prune all files ending in '-alpha.iso' older than three months, or write a package repository system. But I don't know how to administrate the server to keep it very secure and efficient. I only know the bare minimum about Apache required to set up my own local test server for PHP scripting.



How much space do you have? Is the hosting service the type that would let you drive up and give them another harddrive to plug into your server? If so, we could just pitch together to get a dedicated drive for the SVN. A harddrive is a one-time cost, unlike a hosting plan with larger capacity.

From what I understand, GIT is more efficient, space-wise, than SVN. So we may want to consider that to keep the long-term size smaller. Also, that has the side benefit of allowing private branches, which might be nice for people developing long-term puplets. It could seem like overkill, but it would let you keep up with the bug fixes and new features of Puppy without having to start over each version. (If we go with SVN instead, I am considering a playing with a modified version of Unleashed that would help you keep your local changes separate from the original, and to facilitate upgrading to a new base Puppy without re-doing so much of the work that was used for the custom one).

---

One issue with the idea I posted in my last post is that it would be messed up if the package files (the ones on the file server, not the svn server) were updated. I'll have to play with SVN to see if I can get it to simply compare the existing files with the ones on the server. That would be simpler.

[Caneri]

Well...the dedicated box has 100gb drive with 1gb ram and virtual memory. This was kept small to avoid extra rack charges to the kind donor. I'm not sure but if another drive is added there will be more costs than just a drive. I'll check on this.

The 100gb drive is already 75% in use and all the files are not transferred to it. This box also will handle the main OS and prolly will be the main entry point.

The vmware machine is massive but we can't abuse the kind sponsor so a trim will be needed to get .ca up to standards as to what is allowed to make it conform to what is really Puppy.

I truly want direction on this as the servers are still new and untested but they are real and in use already. I'm having a bit of trouble with deciding on the next step so this is where all the pups come in as I do not expect the .ca project to be a one man show but move truly into the control of the entire community...gawd..my head hurts..lol

This being said..there will be major restrictions on the new setup...there will be much more control/limitations for users, as in connections will be limited to 2 and anyone that tries to go around this will be banned via an automated setup without intervention for admin..thus to the abusers of the last month you can bet you won't do it anymore after the move!!
EDIT: To abusers...I'll even be able to disable your proxy misdirections and find your real IP...good luck on your next attempts at DOS attacks directed at .ca.
Eric

[raffy]

Some basic precautions can help secure Apache, like setting user nobody and disallowing directory listing. Eric appears familiar with measures against intrusion, so this will be a good mix of preparations already.

With user nobody, php scripts can be executed to handle files the way Pizzasgood describes it.

GIT requires ssh access, so we can probably try it for development in one server (as contrasted to a server hosting many user downloads).

[Pizzasgood]

EDIT: I should warn you: when I hear an idea, often my first thought is "how can it fail?"

This being said..there will be major restrictions on the new setup...there will be much more control/limitations for users, as in connections will be limited to 2 and anyone that tries to go around this will be banned via an automated setup without intervention for admin..thus to the abusers of the last month you can bet you won't do it anymore after the move!!

Does "try to go around this" mean that just normally trying to download a three things at once will only bring up an error message, and only trying something fancy (or overly persistent) brings the ban?

I generally do much of my downloading with wget, because I can browse to the location in Rox, and then simply drag the download link into that Rox window, and Rox will automatically launch wget and do the download. So in that case I don't even see any error messages, unless I examine the place I downloaded to, where wget will have downloaded the page with the error message. So I could easily start four downloads before I realized anything was wrong.

Now I know, so I won't do that, but other people might.

Also, some people might use those download-accelerator things. I think they establish multiple connections.

In fact, I think Firefox can be configured to use multiple connections in an attempt to get faster access times.

I don't know how you have it set up so these might not be issues. Just mentioning them as things to consider.



Oh, one other thing that occurred to me: dynamic IP addresses. What if somebody attacks you and gets banned, but from a dynamic IP (or from a zombie PC), in which case the next person who gets that IP (or the victim of the zombie machine) will be unable to connect. Similarly, if I was naughty and got banned, the next person to live in my dorm room would be out of luck.

If it's a temporary ban (say, a day or two) it wouldn't be an issue. But I think a permanent ban could be troublesome.

[01micko]

Ok, newby here. Just read all posts on this topic.
So what does all this mean to the "end user", for want of a better term! Do we download Puppy, decide if we like it or not, pay for membership if we do like, (starting to sound like mandrake/iva, which may or may not be a good or bad thing), etc
OR
Try a free version, pay for a "full" version,
OR...
Do you get my drift?

As a user, the way I see it, applications are becoming more web based. I have no need for a mail client because I use Google mail. I don't need a huge HD (or any HD with Puppy?) to store files because I can fairly safely store them on someone elses server. None of this is either hardware (of mine, of course!) or OS dependant.

As users, regardless of what hardware or OS we are using our chief objective is to be connected, for whatever reason. Should that be a focal point?

[tombh]

@tronkel: Did you see my comments to you in my previous post? You agree that it isn't as black and white as Barry completely disappearing? He will still be contributing, so in that sense he doesn't need to be replaced in the absolute sense. But do you still think that the extent of his stepping back is enough to warrant finding someone else of his stature?

@Aitch: Mmm, no I don't think HairyWill would want that role. Do you think a community director/facilitator/officer would me something akin to a moderator? I was thinking that when we upgrade/relocate the forum that would be a good time to reconsider the values/expectations we hold for constructive relations/communication.

@raffy:

The first step in the formal process is drafting of the articles of incorporation and the by-laws.

The CDA have said they'll email a copy of the preliminary rules for an unincorporated Coop. I'll post them on the thread as soon as I get them.

@Pizzasgood:

I think we'll have to use a mix of real-time stuff (e.g. IRC and VoIP) and forum threads, depending on what will be discussed. The forum is nice because you have time to pull your thoughts together, write them, reshape them, and otherwise craft something worth posting. But it's so much slower than real-time. And certain things are much much simpler in real-time. Such as figuring out which aspects of a train of logic a person has issues with. You can go step by step and get immediate feedback.

Yeah, I'd certainly agree with that.

@MU: Do you have any opinions about the Coop approach? Good or bad? Or about formal organisation in general?

@divisionmd: Well in terms of maintaining a web presence, money is currently very much involved, therefore puppylinux.ca and puppylinux.org. Though, theoretically, it is possible to be sponsored web servers, eg Ibiblio and the current forum. It would be nice have a new forum server, the faster the better. Also, in terms of SVN (for development of Puppy by multiple contributors) and package management we need to have servers that we can have very high level access to, again the faster the better!

@Sit Heel Speak:That's very interesting. So you're very much in support of Puppy formalising itself like this? What do you think the drawbacks might be?

@HairyWill:

My personal choice would be to only give write access to someone who had previously released a successful puplet with significant modifications to initrd. I should note that would count me out. I believe that leaves MU, PG and Dougal, any others?

Yes, I'd agree with that. In essence that raises the issue of what truly constitutes an official Puppy release doesn't it?

@01micko: Puppy will always be free! And membership will always be optional. My feeling is that a formal organisation of Puppy will have very little effect on the end user, other than continuing to provide them with innovative and up to date software.

[Caneri]

Well...when the .ca project started bandwidth wasn't an issue. As .ca has grown bandwidth has become an issue. Download accelerators are a big problem with the current server. Although there have been repeated requests to limit connections voluntarily, it persists. Some people use huge amounts of bandwidth and this also needs to be controlled. With the new setup a person can set their download client to as many as they like..but they will only get 2 connections.

I should not have posted my rant...I was angry with an abuser that basically ate up most of the bandwidth at .ca for the month..grr. This is one of the things we need to discuss. Mainly what is the fair use policy for the public and developers alike.

The bottom line is, with more control now available, these issues can be addressed.

When we get further on with a formal entity, server issues can be discussed "in house" so to speak and policies set.

Eric

[ttuuxxx]

What reason would we need a coop for?
Barry is keeping all copyrights, All domain names and he's going to lend a hand every once and awhile.
But now as time goes by, we've already sorted the 4&5 Series without a Coop, or any votes, Just a basic "Go for it" from Barry and the wheels are spinning. A bit late but never the less the puppy machine is well oiled and moving once again.
The Controls are in place, So please people, Lets just work the distro and forget the red tape, that will only complicate something that is already hard enough. If we ever make any donations, I think a direct link to Barry's bank account is all we need. He was and is the pioneer of this great distro.

We have 2 Coordinators already
Puppy 4.2 Whodo
Puppy 5.0 ttuuxxx
To tell you the truth, Once I get everything going and on my server accounts, I'm not walking away any time soon, I will not spend hundreds of hours for some so called Coop to give me my walking papers without reason!!!

You can make a Coop if you want, but if anybody actually takes it serious, is something else. I personally think its a waste of space and time, Why not try something more productive like compiling programs and learning the ins and outs of Linux before trying to control it!

ttuuxxx

[Caneri]

Hi Jeff,

Well there are some issues that don't involve development.

Hey..I'm glad all is moving forward..but there are still things to be worked out that involve "behind the scenes" activities.

I think it's all just part of the growing aspect of Puppy..

Best,
Eric

[HairyWill]

@Aitch: Mmm, no I don't think HairyWill would want that role.

Definitely not.

@Caneri: I may have misunderstood. I thought you had .ca on a host plus the offer of a box with admin rights separately. Maybe you are planning to move .ca onto this. I do not think an iso/svn repository should be on the same box as a general software repository.

Does anyone know what the performance implications of calling svn update on a 1GB largely binary repository would be?

[01micko]

I may have conveyed an incorrect message there; payment of moneys by the user is not the issue. Cost of production is more the issue, ie, lawyers, government fees etc, which, in any business model, have to be covered. Now, the end user may not be asked to pay, but, if not, will advertising and such cover these costs?

[ttuuxxx]

To Caneri/Eric

Your servers are just that, Your servers, You do one of the best thing for puppy and I for one think you do an excellent job

ttuuxxx

[Caneri]

@01micko

The simple answer is no..ads will not cover costs. Sponsors will be needed to supply high speed servers and bandwidth. At least that's my opinion so far.

Best,
Eric

[Caneri]

Thanks Jeff...

Eric

[ttuuxxx]

Hi Jeff,

Well there are some issues that don't involve development.

Hey..I'm glad all is moving forward..but there are still things to be worked out that involve "behind the scenes" activities.

I think it's all just part of the growing aspect of Puppy..

Best,
Eric

Well if a Coop has absolutely no role in the actual development eg.
building, releases, people involved with the actual distro, And sticks to basic administrator task. Then Fine I'll be happy with it, if not. Scrap it!
No offense buddy
ttuuxxx