You struck gold, but didn't see

[rarsa]

Without starting another pissing contest I will limit my response to facts.

The cause of this perhaps may be that some people who hold sway over the Puppy community are either ill equipped or not conscientious enough to give Puppy what I perceive it needs most, better organization, coordination and an effective problem solving capability.

That "people" you talk about includes Barry who has more than once indicated that he does not favour the use of a bug tracker even though several of them have been set up in the past.

Is he is not conscientious enough in your book?

The only time I remember a bug tracker was used was when we were creating Puppy 1.9 CE.

[aarf]

Without starting another pissing contest I will limit my response to facts.

The cause of this perhaps may be that some people who hold sway over the Puppy community are either ill equipped or not conscientious enough to give Puppy what I perceive it needs most, better organization, coordination and an effective problem solving capability.

That "people" you talk about includes Barry who has more than once indicated that he does not favour the use of a bug tracker even though several of them have been set up in the past.

Is he is not conscientious enough in your book.

The only time I remember a bug tracker was used was when we were creating Puppy 1.9 CE.

sorry didnt know this about the official position on the bug tracker. could you post a link or general area where we/i could read those comments on bugtracker.

edit: and technosaurus what is his position on a bugtracker for use in 4.4CE?

[rarsa]

Never have I annoyed a dev, nor would I. Do you assume I would be stupid enough to annoy someone who is earnestly trying to help me?

I am sure you have but I won't ask for a show of hands.

Leaving things half done or partly broken is against my very nature, but I realize some peoples MMV in this respect.

Oh, you just did!

Again, going back to facts. After I spent more than 200 hours improving the network wizard and startup scripts not all the wireless devices were working properly. Then, when I ran out of time I passed the baton to other people that have been working for even longer on it. Still not all the devices work.

Are you suggesting that it's "half done" because that's our nature?

For some people things must be perfect or are not worth doing. They end up doing nothing. It's just in their nature. It's not in mine, I do the best I can, even if it's not perfect.

[alienjeff]

In the immortal words of Yogi Berra: "It's like deja vu all over again."

In the mortal words of Barry Kauler: "yes, there is a bug reporting thingy, but I have only logged in a couple of times, can't be bothered"

Reference: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 749#129749

This "can't be bothered" thread starts here, and is well worth reading for folks who weren't around during this period of Puppy's history:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=19971

So good luck trying to formalize anything in this distro.

[aarf]

In the immortal words of Yogi Berra: "It's like deja vu all over again."

In the mortal words of Barry Kauler: "yes, there is a bug reporting thingy, but I have only logged in a couple of times, can't be bothered"

Reference: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 749#129749

This "can't be bothered" thread starts here, and is well worth reading for folks who weren't around during this period of Puppy's history:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=19971

So good luck trying to formalize anything in this distro.

thanks alienjeff, will have a look into the history and culture

[puppyite]

Some things we create can take on a life of their own. When this happens we must acknowledge this fact and realize that the needs of the many can out weigh the needs of the few. Puppy Linux has a life of it's own. That life is embodied by the sheer weigh of it's multitudinous users and IMO the needs of those people out weigh the needs of the few even when those few include the creator himself.

[rarsa]

sorry didnt know this about the official position on the bug tracker. could you post a link or general area where we/i could read those comments on bugtracker.

Here is the main link:

http://www.puppylinux.com/development/p ... tement.htm

There are other comments in Barry's blog.

I wish there was a bug tracker. I actually created one along with a source management system. I liked the bug tracker that was set up when we were working on 1.09CE. I finally decided that I liked Puppy more than a bug tracker and that I respect what Barry and other volunteers have done with Puppy so I stopped pushing for it.

Don't shoot the messenger.

[puppyite]

If I succeed in getting users and developers to participate THERE WILL BE A BUG TRACKER. If it improves Puppy then I see no reason why any reasonable person wouldn't want to participate.

[mikeb]

My point was that at the moment the forum seems to be, along with barry's blog the center of puppy activity and is at the moment being used for various functions that are usually supported with specialised web based systems.
If using a forum thread as a bugtracker works then so be it...but if it seems to fall short in some way then something else may be needed.
There is a move to get the puppy wiki more populated as a forum as busy as this so easily 'loses' information that only the search gurus can dig out.
Using the wiki as a link through to software is probably a good move too...eg the wine page links to wine packages.
Forums are for discussion and the topic emerging here is 'is more organisation needed and if so how?'...puppy is a big doggie now so time for some training perhaps .

This does not mean the end of fun...trying new ideas and getting them working IS the fun so anything that aids the process should be welcomed....ideas can of course can include how this is achieved. What is needed is to reduce the frustration that is obviously being felt by some members of the community....frustration is simply nature's way of showing that it's time for change that's all.

Perhaps a forum DOES make a good bugtracker and it's other content that needs relocating/reorganising....the main devs have a pretty good idea of what they are comfortable with (or not) , this is more from a partially involved /casual users perspective, all of whom are enthusiastic and keen to contribute in some way.

Ok , just thought I'd pop that in there

regards

mike

[puppyite]

I see no reason why an effective bug tracker would take anything away from the forum or Barry's blog. If anything it would provide more structure and help reduce chaos.

[puppyite]

Even if Barry refused to participate in a bug tracker (which is as yet unknown) then I see no reason why others couldn't or shouldn't. My preference would be that everyone in the community would participate (even you rarsa). I believe sufficient momentum can be generated to persuade even the most recalcitrant luddites to participate.

[aarf]

sorry didnt know this about the official position on the bug tracker. could you post a link or general area where we/i could read those comments on bugtracker.

Here is the main link:

http://www.puppylinux.com/development/p ... tement.htm

There are other comments in Barry's blog.

I wish there was a bug tracker. I actually created one along with a source management system. I liked the bug tracker that was set up when we were working on 1.09CE. I finally decided that I liked Puppy more than a bug tracker and that I respect what Barry and other volunteers have done with Puppy so I stopped pushing for it.

Don't shoot the messenger.

yes that
http://www.puppylinux.com/development/p ... tement.htm
is an important link.
this is also a defining quote

Yes indeed! I'm not interested in running the project "properly". I'm just having fun. If a group of people want a distro that follows all the rules, longer testing schedules, more formal submission such as SVN, better bug reporting mechanism (yes, there is a bug reporting thingy, but I have only logged in a couple of times, can't be bothered)

so i see it as Barry is not against a bugtracker existing but just dont expect him to use it or be guided or directed or dictated to, by it.
so depending on how well it is maintained, this doesnt/wouldnt detract from it being a useful reference point for others. if you have the time, need and inclination to make a bugtracker i'd say go for it, Barry isnt standing in your way..

[rarsa]

Ops, you left behind the last sentence of that same paragraph.

can't be bothered) -- those people are welcome to organise their own fork of Puppy, call it 'doggy' or something.

But I understand what Puppyite says.

[puppyite]

so i see it as Barry is not against a bugtracker existing but just don't expect him to use it or be guided or directed or dictated to, by it.

I only conceived the idea a short time ago when MikeB suggested it and you generously supplied a link so having expectations written in stone would be very premature at this point in time. If people higher up the food chain will resist the impulse to stomp on this idea I believe there is reason to have hope. I am certain there is a pressing need for a bug tracker and IMO I have heard a hue and cry in this forum for just such a solution.

[mikeb]

Ahhhh ... my suggestion was that the forum is being overused...but no worries...discussing such options and learning about the history behind the present setup is interesting.
My opinion is the the 'official' release deserves a more formal approach because
1) its puppies flagship...first encounters should be as bug free as possible
2) there have been many changes of kernel and core software in recent years and keeping 'track' of it seems to me to being a bit of a headache.

Since there appears to be a bugtracker available (did I read that correctly?) perhaps it could be tried out for say a derivative...an example would be one by ttuuxxx or perhaps the upcoming community edition (4.4??)...indeed the latter would be a better test since it involves several 'developers'

mike

[puppyite]

My opinion is the the 'official' release deserves a more formal approach because
1) its puppies flagship...first encounters should be as bug free as possible
2) there have been many changes of kernel and core software in recent years and keeping 'track' of it seems to me to being a bit of a headache.

Since there appears to be a bugtracker available (did I read that correctly?)

Where did you read this? Is it still available? Can you point me to it (this bug tracker)?

perhaps it could be tried out for say a derivative...an example would be one by ttuuxxx or perhaps the upcoming community edition (4.4??)...indeed the latter would be a better test since it involves several 'developers'

Not having used anything but the main distro I'm not clear about what you're saying. Should I infer that you believe Barry will not participate in a bug tracker and therefore a better test for it would be with a derivative? I would prefer to meet the challenge head on and track the prime Puppy distro but if Barry is an impediment to this idea then I would welcome alternatives.

[mikeb]

The only time I remember a bug tracker was used was when we were creating Puppy 1.9 CE.

..from rasa
This is where I gathered there was a bugtracker in use...perhaps it still exists.

mike

[rarsa]

from rasa
This is where I gathered there was a bugtracker in use...perhaps it still exists.

I just confirmed it still exists!

http://tracker.nfshost.com/mantis/login_page.php

The main issue is that people had to get an account to add bugs to it. The administrator was jmarsden. Is he still around? He hasn't posted anything since 2006.

As an FYI... It was very difficult to get people reporting bugs to the bug tracker, to have developers updating it and even more difficult to differentiate what was a Core puppy problem from problems with Pupplets. This forum is not only for Barry's puppy but from many other derivatives.

Good luck in your quest.

[puppyite]

The only time I remember a bug tracker was used was when we were creating Puppy 1.9 CE.

..from rasa This is where I gathered there was a bugtracker in use...perhaps it still exists.

I wondered about that. Any collaboration between rarsa and I is impossible. I would prefer not to say why. Although I would invite him to participate in a bug tracker with the same enthusiasm as I would any other member of the Puppy community. All are welcome.

[puppyite]

"This forum is not only for Barry's puppy but for many other derivatives."

I see no insurmountable problems. Other distros benefit greatly from the use of bug trackers and they face all the same issues Puppy and it's derivatives face in this regard.

No amount of nay saying will convince me that this idea won't improve Puppy.