Page 4 of 5
Posted: Wed 29 Jun 2011, 14:15
by Aitch
A reminder, from the original 'single voice'
Barry K wrote:How the Puppy project is run
July 23, 2007
I am writing this page so that anyone who gets involved with the project will know exactly where they stand and won't have expectations that exceed what is delivered. A few years ago, this project was just me, so it didn't matter. As time has gone on, particularly in the second half of 2006 and into 2007, a great many people have come onboard, in a range of capacities -- some are contributing to the development, some are testing, some helping with web pages, others helping out in the forum. Therefore, it has become important for me to clarify various aspects of how the project is managed and how it will be managed in the future.
Some of what you will read below is quite frank, and somewhat out of character for me to express it. Normally I'm just busy with the project, and sometimes I'm taken by surprise when a conflict or misunderstanding arises. I hope that statements here will minimise any future issues, and allow us all to just enjoy using and developing Puppy.
Project structure
Puppy has never been run as a "proper" project, it has always been ad-hoc. There is no CVS/SVN server, no bug-reporter. For the last couple of years, new puppies have been released every 6 - 8 weeks, a hectic pace, and some would say too hasty for proper bug catching prior to each release. Right up front I would like to state that none of this is likely to change.
There is the appearance of chaos in many aspects of the project, but there is intelligence behind my choice to let everything run free. Developers come in and just let their heads go -- maximum creativity. I think that the end result speaks for itself.
For me, Puppy is a fun project. If it stops being fun, I will move onto something else. I don't have the motivation for more formality, and I find that trying to please many people is not good for the project in the long run. So I just do whatever I please -- I consider all advice very carefully, and often do follow it, but in the end what it comes down to is I decide what to do next in Puppy. There is no committee, no inner-circle. You may advise me, but I have no obligation to do anything that you say or expect. If you think I've done something dumb, well, that's just tough.
Possibly the hectic release schedule will slow down sometime, after all there are other things in life -- I want to go off fossicking soon (gemstones, gold).
There are currently several Puppy-derivatives, and one that is an actual fork -- Grafpup. Anybody is welcome to fork the project and manage it anyway they like. The thing is though, it isn't easy, an incredible amount of commitment is required. If you like Puppy but would like to see more formal management, Nathan, the developer of Grafpup might be interested. Good ideas in Grafpup will likely find their way back to Puppy anyway.
Four years on....but a lot has happened..........and we have Barry's gems and gold, still
Thanks, Barry
Maybe, you would do an update on this?
Aitch
Posted: Wed 29 Jun 2011, 18:51
by tlchost
cthisbear wrote:
Miss Whinie Pants
I am always impressed with the wit expressed in this forum. Amaze me a bit more.....what cheese would you suggest to be appropriate for your whineage?
Thom
Posted: Wed 29 Jun 2011, 21:41
by Caneri
Take a break...it's only a forum for cripes sake...albeit, a fav for me.
Separate categories with separate mods are a pain in the arse and promote "cliques".
Have fun with that one for the "inner circle" believers...good grief!
Leave it now pls...or...spell out who you are speaking of "in public".
Eric
Posted: Wed 29 Jun 2011, 22:07
by Caneri
This post is to see how fast shariebeth will login.
My point precisely was that we need our own moderated forum section, rather than just a thread, to be able to keep the information and discussions on track without stray insulting comments to derail the whole thing and ultimately getting the thread locked with nothing accomplished except more noise and mud slinging. Full stop. No more, no less. No extrapolation needed. It doesn't matter what or who DaveS meant. It in no way contributed anything to this discussion other than namecalling and mudslinging.
Unless the Arch channel warns you of my intent..E
EDIT and addendum...well that took about 3 minutes.
I get it
Posted: Wed 29 Jun 2011, 22:18
by shariebeth
Hi caneri
*waves*
I have the forum settings set to email me when a new post is made in a thread I've posted in, no spies needed.
Hrm, I'm not sure I understand what you want me to spell out, but would be happy to do so if you'd clarify.
Posted: Wed 29 Jun 2011, 22:23
by Caneri
Yes I would like clarifications pls
Why are you asking for so many adjustments to this forum?
It works just fine and I see no reason to add more rules and conditions to it.
The problems happen every so often here. It's a passing phase for most..leave it..it will repair itself when the anger subsides.
Posted: Wed 29 Jun 2011, 22:39
by shariebeth
I think your siggy is a good place to start.
I don't think
some things are fine as they are. I don't think they should stand still. I'm not the only one who thinks so. I am aware there are others who don't agree with me, but that is no different than any other issue here.
Forums are a means of communication, are they not?
Messy, sloppy, long, meandering threads salted and peppered with spam and disagreements along the way make it even harder to keep a good idea going. Communication needs to have context and follow an organized pattern or others won't be able to follow.
Obviously the forums are already divided up and organized to some degree to facilitate that communication and make things easy to find, at least in theory. I am asking for one more small section to be added, some moderators who are interested in this particular project, and the ability to keep things humming along smoothly.
As you say, it's only a forum, yet why are so many people up in arms over the addition of one little section not unlike the others we already have?
I am not trying to change puppy and I am not trying to change the forums.
My goals very simply put, from the two most recent discussions I have been involved in:
1. I am not, and never was, wanting to change the rules here. Whatever the goal of this forum - and I support it however that rolls - the administration of it needs to be handled transparently, equally, and fairly.
2. A home for WhoDo's idea. It does not change Puppy. It's more like taking Puppy to the groomer to clean it up. And all puppies get dirty every now and then.
Posted: Wed 29 Jun 2011, 22:51
by Caneri
the administration of it needs to be handled transparently, equally, and fairly.
It's been quite good so far IMO
Forums are a means of communication, are they not?
Yup.and this forum has a history of tolerance AND information.
A home for WhoDo's idea
Warren can speak for himself on this..I didn't agree with his approach years ago and I still don't. EDIT: My point is not to criticize Warren..just my opinion, as he's done good work.
Thom form Baltimore tried a few good ideas awhile back..he would be a good source of info for this forum me thinks..E
Posted: Wed 29 Jun 2011, 22:57
by shariebeth
Caneri wrote:the administration of it needs to be handled transparently, equally, and fairly.
It's been quite good so far IMO
Everyone's mileage varies, obviously.
Forums are a means of communication, are they not?
Yup.and this forum has a history of tolerance...
Sort of. Kind of like I was taken to task for a comment I didn't even say, and yet cthisbear's stands unchallenged? That sort of thing is all over these forums.
AND information.
Really hard to find information.
A home for WhoDo's idea
Warren can speak for himself on this..I didn't agree with his approach years ago and I still don't.
I believe he has already right here in this thread?
Thom form Baltimore tried a few good ideas awhile back..he would be a good source of info for this forum me thinks..E
Absolutely agreed.
*here's hoping all this quoting works*
Posted: Wed 29 Jun 2011, 23:04
by Caneri
yes..quotes..they can be a pain SB
As for Chris...he has as many rights as we all have on this forum.
He also has some good points to show asinine posts..as does AJ or anyone else.
I actually nominate Thom. For his long history of forum management..not so much here but it's worth looking at IMO...E
Posted: Thu 30 Jun 2011, 02:21
by ttuuxxx
Hi WhoDo is this what you wanted
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/index.php?f=34
I made a Plug forum section under Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects » PLUG group
ttuuxxx
Posted: Thu 30 Jun 2011, 02:26
by James C
Not showing up for me at the moment.
I think the permissions are where Bruce and Flash were having troubles too.
Posted: Thu 30 Jun 2011, 03:18
by ttuuxxx
Posted: Thu 30 Jun 2011, 03:21
by James C
Working now.
Posted: Thu 30 Jun 2011, 03:25
by Flash
I tinkered (carefully) with the permissions for the PLUG forum and the Compiling forum. Everyone should be able to see the Compiling forum now, even if they aren't logged in or registered. I hope all members can see the PLUG forum if they're logged in. I can't remember if they should be able to see it if they aren't.
Posted: Thu 30 Jun 2011, 04:16
by ttuuxxx
Flash wrote:I tinkered (carefully) with the permissions for the PLUG forum and the Compiling forum. Everyone should be able to see the Compiling forum now, even if they aren't logged in or registered. I hope all members can see the PLUG forum if they're logged in. I can't remember if they should be able to see it if they aren't.
If your not logged in it doesn't show up, grrrr but if your logged in it shows, I couldn't find forum permissions anywhere in the administration section.
ttuuxxx
PLUG
Posted: Thu 30 Jun 2011, 07:51
by Volhout
Hi shariebeth,
Just like you and WhoDo, I believe in Puppy, and have tried before to find support to set up some structure for sustaining and strategic developments. The idea behind it was to bring one puppy version to reach consumer level via long term support and structured testing/debugging. At that time it (within 1 week) blew up to gigantic proportions with ego's clashing, one honoured developper even left the forum (maybe even left Puppy) to never return, ... and then the discussion died.
I think the only way to lift this up is to actually do it, and show that it works. That it is worth trying.
But we should prevent changing the nature of this forum. It is an active forum. It is a live forum. And a responsive forum. We should not glue another layer in place between users and developpers. Every time I raise an issue in this forum I get a valueable response within 24 hours. And that is unique. That ... we should not change.
But a lot of usefull things are in those direct interactions. And they should not be lost, since they would lead to a better puppy. That may be something to look into also.
Then there is one major thing we would need to bring puppy to a higher level, and that would involve major architecting, maybe headed by Barry himself. It is the user data. One of the major problems I encounter every time I update puppy, it that I have to do a lot of effort to keep my user data. Puppy is not set up per default to cope with that. Ideally I would like to have a running puppy 4.3.1 system, with 2 years of user data, upgrade to 5.2.5 and have all my user data unaltered. Well, these are existing versions, and we can't change them, but future puppies might be set up default to have this kind op upgrade path embedded. They should be structured like this out of the box. Since not all users know how to do this.
Again, I believe in Puppy, and I believe in what you and WhoDo are trying to achieve, and want to contribute to it actively. So if you are hunting for help, here is one enthousiastic resource.
Volhout
shariebeth wrote:I think your siggy is a good place to start.
I don't think
some things are fine as they are. I don't think they should stand still. I'm not the only one who thinks so. I am aware there are others who don't agree with me, but that is no different than any other issue here.
Forums are a means of communication, are they not?
Messy, sloppy, long, meandering threads salted and peppered with spam and disagreements along the way make it even harder to keep a good idea going. Communication needs to have context and follow an organized pattern or others won't be able to follow.
Obviously the forums are already divided up and organized to some degree to facilitate that communication and make things easy to find, at least in theory. I am asking for one more small section to be added, some moderators who are interested in this particular project, and the ability to keep things humming along smoothly.
As you say, it's only a forum, yet why are so many people up in arms over the addition of one little section not unlike the others we already have?
I am not trying to change puppy and I am not trying to change the forums.
My goals very simply put, from the two most recent discussions I have been involved in:
1. I am not, and never was, wanting to change the rules here. Whatever the goal of this forum - and I support it however that rolls - the administration of it needs to be handled transparently, equally, and fairly.
2. A home for WhoDo's idea. It does not change Puppy. It's more like taking Puppy to the groomer to clean it up. And all puppies get dirty every now and then.
Posted: Thu 30 Jun 2011, 07:52
by WhoDo
ttuuxxx wrote:Flash wrote:I tinkered (carefully) with the permissions for the PLUG forum and the Compiling forum. Everyone should be able to see the Compiling forum now, even if they aren't logged in or registered. I hope all members can see the PLUG forum if they're logged in. I can't remember if they should be able to see it if they aren't.
If your not logged in it doesn't show up, grrrr but if your logged in it shows, I couldn't find forum permissions anywhere in the administration section.
ttuuxxx
Yes, Jeff, I can see the new section thank you! The fact it doesn't show up unless you are logged in is a GOOD thing, IMHO.
Now there is a separate section, are you able to assign specific users as mods to that section? If so, then all that remains is for the users to nominate who they wish to control their discussions in this particular area. I think Thom (tclhost) and maybe Aitch would be excellent choices. Remember that the mods of the main forum should have privileges by default anyway, so it's just a way of adding a "special purpose" moderator or two, if you will. That's how it was set up for me during 4.x development too.
Thanks for working this one out, mate. It is much appreciated. It's now up to the users to show how much they want to be heard by participating in any threads started there with the best interests of Puppy at heart.
Cheers, mate.
Posted: Thu 30 Jun 2011, 09:14
by Jasper
Hi all,
I can now see the "Compiling" section of this forum without logging in; but I cannot see the "Package Collections / Repositories" section unless I log in.
Since the introduction of the new sections referred to above I have no longer been able to view profiles without being logged in.
The forum clock is slow by some 13/14 minutes.
My regards
Posted: Thu 30 Jun 2011, 11:51
by shariebeth
Thank you very much! (And Flash too for the tinkering)
Volhout wrote:
Again, I believe in Puppy, and I believe in what you and WhoDo are trying to achieve, and want to contribute to it actively. So if you are hunting for help, here is one enthousiastic resource.
Definitely hunting for help and we'd love to have you. Thanks!