Frugal or traditional HD install - do both load to RAM?

[musther]

I've been reading a lot of comments on the forums saying that people who have a machine running puppy from HD would be better off doing a frugal HD install, rather than a more traditional GNU/Linux HD install. I concede the advantages, but have a couple of questions.

When Puppy boots from CD, frugal install, or any read only medium, it loads everything into RAM, which makes it very fast (yay). My question is, with a traditional HD install does it do the same, or does it behave like a normal OS, just loading things as needed. If it does the latter, then surely a traditional-type install would be better for machines which don't have plenty of RAM because they'll leave more of it free for applications to use. Incidentally my laptop (which is what I use puppy for) has 64mb of RAM, so a difference in Puppy's RAM usage is important.

Thanks

[sunburnt]

Hi musther; Puppy only loads into memory IF there's room.
No the FULL install is normal & doesn't load into memory.
Any of the other install types (CD-DVD, HD, USB) can load into memory.

[GuestToo]

most of the files (programs, libraries) in the Puppy operating system are compressed in pup_212.sfs ... the number depends on the version of Puppy, sfs is short for Squash File System

a traditional install consists of uncompressing all the files in the .sfs file and copying them to the hard drive ... pup_212.sfs is about 65 megs ... uncompressed the files will take up over 200 megs of space

it depends on the hardware (speed of the cpu, the ram, the drive whether cd or hard drive or usb drive), but usually it's a little faster to copy the smaller compressed file to ram then uncompress it, than it is to copy the uncompressed file to ram

in a traditional install, each file is on the drive, uncompressed, and is not copied to ram unless it is actually used

if you have limited ram, say less than 120 megs, in a live cd or frugal install, each file is on the drive, compressed, and is not copied to ram unless it is actually used

the difference between a traditional install and running from the cd or a frugal install, is that the file system is uncompressed for the traditional install ... there is little difference between the two, except for most hardware, accessing uncompressed files is a little slower than accessing compressed files ... so a frugal install should be a little faster than a traditional install

if there is enough space in ram, at least 120 megs, the compressed pup_212.sfs file can be copied entirely to ram ... the files are compressed in the .sfs file, and if a file is needed, the compressed file is copied from the .sfs file and uncompressed in ram ... this is the same as a frugal install, or running from the cd, except accessing the compressed .sfs file in ram is much faster than accessing it on the hard drive, and much much faster than accessing it from a cd or usb drive

the disadvantage of this is that the .sfs file is taking about 65 megs of space in ram ... on the other hand, the kernel would probably be using some of this space for caching anyway, to speed up access to the slow cd or hard drive ... copying the .sfs file to ram does the same sort of thing as caching, it speeds up access to the files

so, if you have lots of ram, the compressed pup_212.sfs file will be copied to ram, which will speed up access to the files, like caching does, except everything is cached and ready when you first boot

if you have limited ram, not much will be copied to ram ... for a traditional install, just the kernel, vmlinuz ... for a cd or frugal install, initrd.gz ... in either case, pup_212.sfs will not be copied to ram, and the files will be accessed directly from the cd or usb or hard drive ... and usually, it's a little faster to access a file in a compressed file system than uncompressed (because cd drives and hard drives are very slow so copying a compressed file that is half or a quarter of the size of an uncompressed file is faster)

that is, for a machine with limited ram, a frugal install will use the space required by the uncompressed initrd.gz file ... a traditional install will not ... for Puppy 212, initrd.gz is about 1 meg compressed ... that is the main difference ... it's not much, but for a machine with limited resources, it can mean the difference between being able to boot or not

it depends on your hardware, but usually a frugal install will be faster, because accessing files in a compressed file system is usually faster than accessing uncompressed files

for a machine with very little memory, it may not be able to boot from a cd or frugal install, because it does not have space even for the files in the 1 meg initrd.gz file ... in that case, you must have a traditional installation, in order for it to be able to boot at all

[PaulBx1]

The solution to the "not enough ram" problem is simple: buy more ram! I know that is not an option in every case, but I bet many people keep going along with inadequate ram (and accepting all the compromises required by that) when they don't need to...

[musther]

I can't update the RAM in this old laptop, I don't think I can get hold of any, and besides, I think it's maxed out.

So, with 64mb RAM on my old 233 laptop, a frugal should be a little quicker as I understand it, or at least not really any different (and of course I have a swap partition). Is that right?

It seems to me that what you're basically saying is that the RAM usage will only be fractionally different with either a frugal or traditional install.

Thanks

[marksouth2000]

Musther, I'd be surprised if you noticed much difference one way or another. Swings and roundabouts.

Paul, please send me a stick of 128MB EDO SODIMM to upgrade my old 4010CDT to the maximum 160MB

Thanks,
Mark

[eMeRy]

I installed Puppy to HD. I do not complain about its performance. (I really like its speed at boot up.)
Though I read a lot about the advantage of live cd or frugal install, still I have some questions.
I changed gxine to xine-ui, my file manager is MC from repository, changed mozilla to firefox2.0, installed nvidia driver and Transmission (my system is based on 1.08 puppy) upgraded MUT and JWM and made a lot of other small changes. These programs and changes are stored in HD.
What about the speed of these programs? Are they loaded to memory too? If not, is there any advantage of live CD or frugal when I run these applications?
When I run puppy from live cd it takes very long time to copy the 60-70 Mb from the cd to memory during boot (I have a 24x CD drive). When I run puppy from hd it takes only 15-20 seconds to boot up from grub menu. I understand, after boot, when I run a program, its start up time is longer than the original puppy method. After the program loaded to the memory, has it the same performance like that case when it is uncompressed from other location of ram?
Thanks,
eMeRy

[GuestToo]

When I run puppy from live cd it takes very long time to copy the 60-70 Mb from the cd to memory during boot

just copy the pup_212.sfs and zdrv_212.sfs (or whatever they are named for your version of Puppy) to the hard drive where the save file is, /mnt/home/ ... and Puppy will copy to ram from the hard drive instead of the cd ... you will have installed about 95% of Puppy on the hard drive simply by copying those 2 files

it's probably a little faster to run with everything completely in ram, but the real advantage of running from a cd or frugal install is the simplicity of the installation ... the entire installation is just a few files that can easily be backed up and restored and upgraded

is there any advantage of live CD or frugal when I run these applications?

no, there is no advantage, files that are added or changed will be stored on the hard drive uncompressed, just like a normal install ... unless you remaster the Puppy iso

Firefox is relatively bloated and slow ... i mostly use Firefox because of it's simple clean interface, and because it has a few useful extensions, like AdBlock, NoScript, CustomizeGoogle, Torbutton and DownThemAll

[eMeRy]

GuestToo, thank you not only your answer to my question but the explanation you wrote in this thread some messages before.
eMeRy

[veronicathecow]

Hi, I've done a full install to HDD and it works lovely (2.12) but I am really after speed. Any easy way to make the compressed file load into RAM (Ihave 512MB)?

If there is any chance of instructions that could be understood by a brick it would be really appreciated.

Also anyone know where I can find a list of files where system stuff is stored.

Cheers
Tony[/quote]

[GuestToo]

Any easy way to make the compressed file load into RAM

just boot from the cd

if you copy pup_212.sfs and zdrv_212.sfs to /mnt/home, Puppy will copy them from the hard drive instead of the cd ... just copying those 2 files installs Puppy on the hard drive about 95% ... you can complete the install by copying vmlinuz and initrd.gz to the hard drive and putting a few lines in Grub's menu.lst file

that way, you would have Puppy installed on your drive using both methods ... the 2 versions of Puppy should not interfere with each other

i don't know if you would notice a big difference in speed, but it should be at least a little faster running completely in ram

[veronicathecow]

Hi GuestToo, thanks for reply, just one slight problem...

I have no /mnt/home !
I have /mnt but no home directory

hda1 is puppy
hda2 is Knoppix
hda3 is swap
hda4 is a Puppy 2.12 for testing

Install was a full to HDD hda1 with the stable 2.12

Any thoughts?
thanks
Tony

[veronicathecow]

Way to tired, I assume you mean create a folder /mnt/home ?

Anyway I will give it a try and then get some sleep...

[Braden]

It's my understanding that full hard-drive installs don't mount /mnt/home, which is where frugal installs mount their parent drive.

I think if you have a full hard drive install, the equivalent drive is mounted at /, but don't quote me on that one.

[GuestToo]

if you have a full to HDD installation, Puppy will not be using a compressed file or a save file ... the whole point of a normal install is to create a partition with a linux file system and copy all the files in the compressed file to the partition, so that Puppy will run like all of the hundreds of other normal Linux distros

if you want to run Puppy with the files all in ram, you can boot a Puppy cd ... the compressed file will be copied to ram and mounted ... the compressed file can be copied to the hard drive, so that when Puppy boots, it will copy the compressed file from the hard drive instead of the cd, which is much faster ... doing this effectively installs about 95% of Puppy on the hard drive, just by copying 1 file

a frugal install just copies a few more files from the cd to the hard drive, and configures Grub so you can boot Puppy from those files from the cd that are on the hard drive (the cd is not needed anymore)

you don't need to uninstall a "normal" Puppy install to boot from the cd or to boot a frugal install, they won't interfere with each other, you can boot one or the other

a "normal" install probably doesn't have /mnt/home ... there would be no point in creating a /mnt/home dir ... when you run Puppy from the cd, or a frugal install (same as booting from a cd except all the files were copied to the hard drive), Puppy uses a file on the hard drive to save changes to ... the save file is on /mnt/home ... a full normal install does not have a save file, you just save directly to the entire partition

you asked:

Any easy way to make the compressed file load into RAM

and i told you how ... but if you have a full normal install to a partition, you do not have a compressed file or a save file, and Puppy is not running with the file system in ram ... that is, talk about the compressed file and the save file and running in ram does not apply to you

[PaulBx1]

GuestToo, I agree on copying pup_212.sfs to the hard drive for a fast boot, but I wonder about copying zdrv_212.sfs? It is only accessed once during setup when any drivers needed are (effectively) copied over to the pup_save file (on shutdown). Seems there is really no advantage to putting it on the hard drive. But, my understanding of this is perhaps a bit shaky, so maybe I'm wrong...

[GuestToo]

if you have a frugal install (boot from the hard drive instead of the cd), you have to have zdrv_212.sfs on the hard drive, for when it's needed ... otherwise, you will need to have the cd in the drive all the time, in case it's needed

if you boot from the cd, i don't think zdrv_212.sfs is copied to ram ... but if you need it later, it needs to be either on the cd or on the hard drive ... if you have pup_212.sfs on the hard drive anyway, you might as well have zdrv_212.sfs there too

Seems there is really no advantage to putting it on the hard drive

the main advantage is that you don't need to keep the cd in the cd drive, just in case it needs to get a module

[PaulBx1]

That makes sense. Even though the need for it might be extremely rare, it's not like it's going to fill up your hard drive, being there.

I wonder what happens when it's not available anywhere and modprobe wants something from it. I'd hope it gives a message saying "put the CD in the drive," or something like that...

[vanchutr]

How to check the zdrv_212.sfs was installed?
Where I can find it on my system?
(I'd used the pup_212.sfs (the larger iso)
Thank

[Pizzasgood]

It should be in the same location as pup_212.sfs. In a frugal install that would be /mnt/home. If you use live-cd and copy it to your harddrive, it would also be /mnt/home. In a full-HD install, I think it would go in /.