Problems w/ATI Radeon 8500, 9500 & 9600 Video and Puppy 2.12

[withasong]

I have Puppy 2.12 and have placed it on 3 computers in a Live-CD multisession format in my home. I have ATI Radeon Video Cards on all 3 computers, though they are different models (8500, 9500 and 9600). I have used the Xorg setup at the recommend levels which were auto-sensed (which was the same for all 3 computers, usually 1024x768 or 1280x1024, at 16 and/or 24 bit color, and I tried all these combinations as they were marked as OK for my monitor and video cards by the video setup).

1st problem: DVDs and other videos (avi's, mpeg's, etc.) work in a basic manner on 2 computers, but on the one with the 9500, all I get is either a totally blue screen (if I choose 16 bit color) or a totally black screen (if I choose 24 bit color), though the sound plays. On this one computer without a useful display, if I use Xvesa instead of Xorg, it plays DVD's with gXine, but if I try avi's, mpeg's, etc., it says "error opening/initializing the selected video_out (-vo) device" and it won't play ANY of these non-DVD-type videos (and interestingly, gXine plays the DVD's but MediaPlayer won't, and MediaPlayer gives the quoted error message for DVD's and all other video formats). BTW, on this one troubled computer, I have 2 GB of physical memory (and on the other 2, I have 512 MB).

2nd problem: On the two computers which have no basic problem displaying DVD's, avi's mpeg's, etc., the video is acceptable until there is movement, in which case the images kind of fracture horizontally, and in full screen, this is often VERY pronounced and unacceptable (and this is also true of the one computer with the 9500 video card using Xvesa and gXine to view DVD's).

To restate and summarize, one computer has no really useful video (though Windows with this same 9500 video card is absolutely gorgeous with all types of videos) and the other two computers (with the 8500 and 9600 cards) often have fractured flickers.

While I need a basic solution for the one computer with the 9500 card which doesn't play any videos of any format (such as in MediaPlayer), what I really need on all 3 computers is a larger solution so I can get results which can compete with what I can do in Windows (I just hate Windows looking better!), and I'm talking about smooth full-motion video (which I don't seem to have yet in Puppy). I'm persistent and determined to find out how I can make my Puppy as good as (if not better than) Windows.

I read with interest the thread of ideas about ATI cards in topic 10405 and followed up on linuxnoob1112's link posted on August 23, 2006, about ATI drivers. I believe that these drivers can be installed in Puppy if I understood the responses in that forum thread, but I sure have a lot of questions about using it in my Puppy.

1. Will the ATI driver replace fully the Xvesa and Xorg system, or will it work cooperatively with them?

2. Does Puppy have XFree86 and what is the version (if Puppy has XFree86 at all)? If not, what does it have as an equivalent?

3. The main ATI package is over 55MB in size, and what will that do to my multisession Puppy in terms of size?

4. Is this worth doing and is it necessary (in other words, do others have smooth, full-motion video without needing to install something extra like this ATI package)? Will the ATI drivers allow my video card to use its features (such as video acceleration, etc.) so I can play DVD's and other videos as well as they display in Windows when ATI drivers are installed? Should I wait instead for Puppy 2.13 and will it give me solutions that I don't currently have?

5. Has anyone actually tried installing this driver and did it work well (in other words, was it worth the effort and time, did you achieve your goals and do you now have smooth full-motion video which you didn't have before, and did you have any problems)?

LINKS:

1. This Forum's Topic 10405: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=10405

2. ATI Radeon Linux Feature List: https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/674/9206/0/ ... .24.8.html

3. ATI Radeon Linux Installation Instructions: https://a248.e.akamai.net/f/674/9206/0/ ... -inst.html

4. ATI Linux Download Site: http://ati.amd.com/support/drivers/linu ... adeon.html

[Gn2]

Use any ATI proprietary driver as they recommend for your specific VID chipsets. (on board or add-in)

If the drivers Req. compiling - you may need at least the kernel headers - perhaps the full kernel sources - matching the version of Puppy used.
Which will be a problem - Puppy by default does not include development utilities nor kernel sources.

XFree86 is no longer used > Xorg is new server for GUI.
Once configured (uses Xorg) the proprietary drivers are used instead of "generic" driver in configuration file.
Xvesa is GENERIC - widely used because majority of Vid chipsets & monitors for many years - have fully supported VESA standards.

Xvesa should enable your vid & monitor to work without proprietary drivers - google or consult your manuals for specs.
Correct suported modelines may be edited into the x server file.
Xvesa (should also include a "frame-buffer" sample) is usually only a developer supplied x-server file.

Please browse prior posts - for prior explanations RE VESA <> Xorg.

Xorg does NOT use own drivers - it is the same as XFree was - an X-server data file only for any Linux graphical usage.

(X -Windowing servers may be used on Redmond platforms as well) !
Desktops are managed by varied Apps -
GUI services are supplied by those Apps.
Window App managers -are NOT desktop Mgrs.
They may be used to control which desktop Mgr App is used - or may be defined by user in own created (dot) xinitrc file stored in user's home folder.
If that file does not exist - the system wide defaults as scripted by the distribution developer - & should reside in /etc/skel -
are used - at install & subsequent boots until/if changed by user.
Alternate configs may be set/used - as should (not presently capable in Puppy) concurrent separate desktops :
( separate instances of a desktop)

Code: Select all

(example) startx  -- :2

Please NOTE: This is not the same thing as multiple desktops allowed & user configurable in (E.G) KDE.


HTH

[tempestuous]

Will the ATI driver replace fully the Xvesa and Xorg system, or will it work cooperatively with them?

The proprietary ATI driver works as an "add-on" to Xorg.

Installing this driver from scratch is a serious undertaking, as Gn2 has explained ...
but why attempt this when all the hard work has already been done by other forum members?
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=13114

And regarding video playback; run Xorg, not Xvesa, for optimal results, and with both MPlayer and Gxine make sure the video out method is "xv".

[withasong]

Thanks, tempestuous, you've again come to my rescue. I also want to thank Gn2, but I didn't have a clue, after I read what was posted 3 times, about what I should or could do (but I did understand a few lines), BUT I know Gn2 is sincerely trying to help me (I'm just too new and uninformed to be able to decipher the very serious help that was so generously offered).

Tempestuous, you suggested I download the 3DCC from topic 13114 instead of using the ATI proprietary drivers, which is what I'm trying to do.

I installed 3DCC, followed the first 2 steps outlined in the comment area which appear on the first run and these 2 steps installed successfully. When I went to the 3rd step to install the DRI-Graficscard-Drivers, I get a file integrity error as a result of a failed download. I notice the download window (which closes rather quickly) says 404 error - file not found for the DRI-_dri.so.pup file.

I did a search for this file within the forum, but the search yielded no results. I also posted something in the topic 13114 about the missing file.

Now I feel I have sufficient answers to questions 1 and 2 in my original post in this thread and question 3 may not be an issue; however, I still hope someday to get answers to questions 4 and 5 from someone (anybody!), especially if I get the missing 3DCC file and it does NOT resolve the basic issues posed in 4 and 5 -- but first I'll wait to try 3DCC and hope it provides those answers (and I will be back to say it worked or...?).

Again, thanks tempestuous and Gn2 for your help and feedback!

[Gn2]

W-A-S

You are very welcome - so don't worry - most daily needs will soon be old hat to you -all takes time & most of all -
what you are demonstating : Patience/willingness to explore.
Backup & know you can try most anything with the safety of ability to "roll-back" any Temp. glitches which will occur !

# 4 Yes, use of proprietary drivers will enhance VID usage - how much largely depends on the chipset/driver combo in use.
#5 Is really not important to you -your own use will satisfy needs or lead to exploring further - all part of the use > learn as we go cycle we all face.
I view it - if nothing goes wrong - what is learned - behind the scenes events would still remain unknown ?

BTW you might find THIS Useful

[withasong]

One of the unique things about threads (like this discussion) is when it "frays" into other threads and finally seems to break away completely from the original discussion (like it has done in this case).

All of the problems I introduced for these ATI Radeon cards continue, but it's not here anymore, now it's over here instead.

The really neat thing is that there's a lot of tools that are being given to me over there, so be sure to click on the links here (the "blue" words) if you have similar problems to what I've had with ATI Radeon video cards not giving either any display to videos (like my 9500), or fractured flickers or just something less than you're used to having in Windows (like with my 8500 & 9600). We're trying to make Puppy a full competitor to Windows when it comes to playing videos (DVDs, avi's, mpg's, etc.) -- and, uh, games too!

Sorry for the frayed thread, but that's how things seem to go sometimes. See you in topic 13114 which is centered around the video 3D Control Center utility and drivers (aka 3DCC),

[tempestuous]

From http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 4&start=45

OK, now we have some better information to go on.
Gn2 is right, the "vesa" line is read first, so you are running the (generic) vesa Xorg driver. That's why you are getting modest graphics performance. I can now say that if you change MPlayer's video output option to "x11" it should work, but that doesn't solve your overall graphics problem.

We could manually modify the xorg.conf to "radeon" or "fglrx" ... but since the agpgart module is not loaded, this will fail and you will end up back at the command prompt, or at a black screen.
EDIT: "ati" is completely wrong in xorg.conf, this is only for old ATi mach64 chipsets on "RagePro" cards.

The agpgart module and xxx-agpgart module are contained in the compressed zdrv file. This file needs to be accessable, but I don't know exactly how this is achieved. Mark is probably right, it should be located in /mnt/home, which is the same location as your pupsave file ... but then again, you might be using a multi-session CD and things may be different? I don't know.
Certainly, if you are booting from the puppy-2.12-seamonkey-zdrv.iso then the zdrv file will be at the root directory of the CD.
Gn2's suggestion of booting with "puppy pfix=ram" will enable you to boot ignoring previous pupsaves, and I suggest for further testing that you save your pupsave file to a hard drive or USB flash drive.

Once booted afresh, run lsmod to see if agpgart is loaded. If not, load it manually -

modprobe agpgart

And one more thing; for your 9500 setup, what main chipset is on your motherboard? (I suspect SiS) Maybe Puppy is having trouble detecting its AGP bridge.
Hardware detection problems can often be solved by making sure that the bios is set for "PnP OS = NO" or "PnP OS = OFF".
This bios setting is important for anyone running Linux.

[Gn2]

it may have been misleading to state ATI was needed driver - it seems to depend more on chipset.
So ATI or FGLRX would be named device driver in xorg.conf
.
These may give more info:

http://dri.freedesktop.org/wiki/

http://ati.amd.com/support/driver.html

Note the drivers now available & suport is limited to newer chipsets. not older legacy cards.

[tempestuous]

... it seems to depend more on chipset.

Yes, detailed summary of different ATi 2D/3D drivers here http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 8924#48924

[MU]

I think the agpart issue is essential.

My tip to put zdrv_212.sfs in /mnt/home is only valid, if Puppy created /mnt/home by itself. This is the case with running Puppy from CD with settings saved to the harddisk (or a "frugal" installation).
If you use a multisession-CD, you might have no /mnt/home.
But anyway, as you use the "big" 2.12 (puppy-2.12-seamonkey-zdrv.iso), it should be mounted automatically somehow.

Now your error:

sh-3.00# modprobe agpgart
FATAL: Module agpgart not found.

This is important, as it indicates, that the zdrv_212.sfs is NOT mounted. This might be a bug in Puppy itself
Another way to verify that:
you should have the file:
/lib/modules/2.6.18.1/kernel/drivers/char/agp/agpgart.ko

I would suggest, to copy the required files manually, as I cannot help to fix this potential bug in Puppy.

Try these commands:

Code: Select all

mkdir /root/zdrv
mount -o loop /XXX/zdrv_212.sfs /root/zdrv

Where XXX is the folder, where zdrv_212.sfs is located.
Now copy all files from
/root/zdrv/lib/modules/2.6.18.1/kernel/drivers/char/agp/
to
/lib/modules/2.6.18.1/kernel/drivers/char/agp/

Then type
depmod
to update the module-list for the Kernel.
Now test again:
modprobe agpgart

If you have success now, we can continue.

####################
a note on mplayer:

If the fglrx-driver gives you an error:

"Error opening/initializing the selected video-out (-vo) device"

then you must choose another vo-device (=driver) in the preferences, see:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 5865#85865

The "X11" should work with any card, as it uses no accelleration.
OpenGL gives better results with fglrx, but only, if accelleration works.
If the 3D-Demo runs slow, OpenGL is no choice!

Mark

[Gn2]

Temp

That's better - was it supplied B4 to W.A.S. ?
Things like this"

Mark,
agpgart.ko is a dependency for all the -agp.ko modules, so agpgart will
automatically load.

& follow-up results - Are not very encouraging !

The dismaying part - ATI dropping legacy chipset support !
(Plus - Hard to trouble shoot for users with Nividia only)

Re old Radeon - chipsets they are NOT the same
I had an AGP version ( reason to switch to Nvidia) that was advertised as Linux compatible > it was NOT !
ATI at that time had scant desire to support Linux
Linux developers could not backwards assemble proprietary drivers.

Ahh well thankfully (for me) all is now history - except for ATI users - they STILL have far more problems than Nvidia.

Too long to browse all above content - what is status of AIW cards

[withasong]

Glad to see everyone here!

Let me try to respond to your most recent posts, somewhat in the order you presented them, then (probably in another post here), I'll summarize the current status of the 3 computers and video cards as it stands today as a result of all we've accomplished with 3DCC and its driver combo's (because we've definitely made some progress compared to where we started).

Tempestuous, I will check the BIOS settings for PnP OS after I place this post to see what my status is, and I will get back to you after I reboot.

Mark, I checked /lib/modules/2.6.18.1/kernel/drivers/char/agp/agpgart.ko and I don't arrive. The folder structure you asked me to use stops at /lib/modules/2.6.18.1/kernel/drivers/char/ and there is no agp folder (I see a subfolder named "drm" within "char" and I also see a file named "lp.ko" in "char"). Because of this, I seem unable to do the other things you suggested, as they depend on this last folder "agp" existing (which it does not). I am running multisession from a CD, so I wonder if that makes a difference?

Gn2, the status of the AIW is kind of wonderful at the moment. It is the only computer in Puppy that has DRI active (only the ATI-fglrx driver does this, and the r200 driver gives me no display at all in Puppy). The 3D demo on my 8500 runs at 50 fps (which isn't bad for such an old card as the 8500 AIW is). gXine works great! MPlayer didn't work last time I tried, but I haven't experimented with the other applicable drivers yet in MPlayer to determine which one will be best, though I think I can now probably use one of the faster OpenGL drivers since acceleration seems to be operating. I've tried nothing else that depends on acceleration other than the demo on my 8500-based computer, so I'll need to do more checking to be sure everything's actually OK.

With Mplayer on my 9500 computer, I did try the X11 driver as Mark suggested and MPlayer does now for the first time on this 9500-based computer play scaled-down videos (but I can't get the video to full screen, though I get big, full-black borders instead), but the MPlayer website says this is normal for X11 drivers (plus their website told me how to change the drivers, because up until that point, I simply didn't know how to do it since the GUI Preferences tab simply wouldn't do it). In contrast though, gXine plays the very same DVD in full screen, so I wonder how gXine pulls that off (however, I'm not saying DVDs are fine grained with smooth motion yet in gXine). That I can play videos at all in both players is a major improvement over our start point. Once we get DRI and OpenGL working, I think videos will improve considerably on my 9500 over "just" playing (which they do now).

I can't help but wonder if the ATI driver 8.32.5 which was updated December 13, 2006, might have some fixes for my 9500 and 9600 (but it probably just has newer cards instead of fixes, since historically ATI tends to just run ahead to sell newer products rather than fix older units) -- but I can't help but wonder. I downloaded the 8.32.5 installation file to try, but I don't have the background yet to know how to install a file ending with ".run" in Puppy's version of Linux (I did give it a try in Rox, but nothing at all happened, so I know that's probably not the route, and I tried to follow ATI's Linux instructions but got lost fairly quickly when I didn't find what they suggested on my first attempt). I think Gn2 tried to give me some clues about how to do it too, but I couldn't decipher the clues (though I re-read and re-read the clues --but I'll re-try again on another day).

Since this is New Year's Eve day, I'm expecting activities to pick up as the day progresses and I may not be able to get back with more postings until tomorrow, but it depends on what else is going on here (but I may get back sooner than I think too).

In case I don't get back today, I want to wish you all a Happy New Year and see you next year (...well, tomorrow)!

[Gn2]

WAS

Family/friends come first (computer won't run away)

how to install a file ending with ".run

In CLI mode (not GUI desktop) - type

Code: Select all

sh name_of_file.run

Example

Type "sh NVIDIA-Linux-x86-1.0-6106-pkg1.run"

TIP - use wildcards to lessen lengthy typing & typos:
I.E.

Code: Select all

# sh  N*.n

= anyunique combination of lower or upper-case letters that cannot be matched by any other file in accessed folder.

Having Kernel sources, I downloaded the Nvidia driver file,
ran the installer - all was CFg'd & desktop enabled in Approx 4 mins !
Must be done in text mode

I forgot one pre-step needed for Nvid -- but the Nvid installer noted & warned -
Use of generic "nvfb" (previously had used in xorg for Vesa standards modelines) will conflict/stop loading of Nvidia kernel & proprietary GLX wrappers.

Fix - instead of re-compiling kernel modules - merely commented out ( put # in nvfb line) of library modules.dep file.
Ran lsmod to confirm which frame buffer was loaded, rmmod to stop nvfb - restarted x-server (startx) as set by own created .xinitrc file in home folder. (starts KDE)

HTH Happy New Year to all

[MU]

did you run the commands I suggested?

Code: Select all

mkdir /root/zdrv
mount -o loop /XXX/zdrv_212.sfs /root/zdrv

see message above.
Then there should be
/root/mount/lib/modules/2.6.18.1/kernel/drivers/char/agp

You don't get that?

Mark

[tempestuous]

Until you can access the full set of Puppy's modules and load the agpgart module, everything else is pointless. Don't even bother to test MPlayer and Gxine until your Xserver is set up properly.

There's something fundamentally wrong with the way that Puppy Linux is installed and set up on your computer. It may be related to the fact that you are running multi-session CD.
Mark has provided the manual solution to mount the zdrv file ... although it's unfortunate that this is necessary.
My earlier suggestion was to AVOID using the multi-session CD.

Is there anyone else reading this thread who knows why the zdrv file cannot be accessed in this circumstance?

[Gn2]

Frustration creeping in ?

access the full set of Puppy's modules and load the agpgart module, everything else is pointless

(Me too) - maybe the New Year will allow less intensive/prolonged hours per session of trials.

Puppy v2.12 with Sea Monkey etal should give needed module support.
( puppy-2.12-seamonkey-zdrv.iso)
URL > http://ftp.nluug.nl/ftp/pub/os/Linux/distr/puppylinux/
Personally - I would suggest to download kernel sources -
> Use downloaded ATI proprietary drivers for EACH individual chipset -
If that were done - ATI would work by now sans any Puppy "add-ons" !
As Tempestuous states - until proper relevant Agpgart is available - forget about App abilities now capable.

[withasong]

Sorry Mark. Since you said that I should have a certain file within a specified folder structure "before" you told me to issue a group of commands, I naturally assumed that the file within the folder structure had to pre-exist the commands (I just assumed you were giving me a top-down listing of events).

I did not know that the commands you gave me would create the file and directory structure. If the commands had been given to me first, and if the folder structure and file was identified next, I would have "gotten it". Because that was not the order, I figured something was amiss and froze in place. Maybe this is a shortcoming on my part and I shall try to do better.

I'm trying to follow you literally and do what you say exactly in the order you say it. If you give me things to do in a non-top-down sequence, I may not get it and I may need additional guidance. I think I see now since you have clarified (and I appreciate that clarification) and I will do the commands in the morning after i check my BIOS first as tempestuous suggested.

I just came by the computer to shut it off since I have company and saw the 3 of you had already got back to me. Thanks for your very quick responses (the 3 of you amaze me)!

[tempestuous]

I see another forum member, RobP, is experiencing the same problem with the zdrv file -
http://www.puppyos.net/forum/?1167295839
He has the problem with just one particular computer.

A quick fix might be to package a dotpup of all agp and drm kernel modules. But it's still weird that this is necessary.

[MU]

ok, added the agp-modules.
Install the Kernelmodules again in 3DCC or download and install in Rox:
http://dotpups.de/3DCC/2.12/DRM-Kernelmodules-Puppy.pup

Then type:
modprobe agpgart

When you reboot, the correct module should be loaded automatically by Puppy.

Mark

[Gn2]

Please step back & review all = Far too much jump- around presumptions & guess work here :

The path to stored modules must be in search.
First check whatever media contains add-on drivers is mounted
Whether that be on cd or downloaded Pkge which is mounted
If on external media - mount & Cd to media then issue modprobe command -
Mounted media must be in CLI shell search path

In the case noted - it is not stated if the cd is external or even mounted.
Same applies to floppy drive (that user did say he mounted floppy first for the wireless driver access.)
3dcc add- on is a package - does it contain generic agp driver - If not why not - (Mu has now included )?
It was an unfortunate oversight that the generic AGP not compiled into kernel as noted before - yet non-compatible frame buffer support was ?

Do not fall into guesswork or compare apples to oranges.
It takes step by step logical provable analysis of any problem to trouble shoot
Someone stated modprobe in Puppy is a script - Is that confirmed ?

Once modules are loaded as confirmed by lsmod - depmod must be run
Puppy does not use Linux standard of /lib/modules/kernel_version/modules.dep (aliased) storage !

Variation is OK - only if/when all is thoroughly tested
When any bug is noted - where Puppy deviates must be evaluated & taken into trouble shooting methods.

This is not a criticism of suggestions - conversely an attempt to
evaluate all methods suggested to sort out what is taking place.

As has been noted - if kernel sources are installed to access needed headers - the proprietary drivers would be installed by now.
Then the varied XMMS utilities may be tried & optimised.