Puppy ease of use - "choosing distro" site says its hard?

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oblivious · #1 Post by **oblivious** » Sat 01 Dec 2007, 05:56

I've just been messing around and entered some info into some "distro choosing" quizzes from links on a Wikipedia page about Linux (just to see what they'd say). One mentioned Puppy but gave a "not recommended" symbol because it said it was geared to "knowledgeable" people. I was surprised - Puppy is the first distro I could ever manage to even get to work and I find it easy because of the feedback it gives ("you need to do this" -type messages).
Is there any objective standard by which things like ease of use are determined or is it all just subjective/opinion?

muggins · #2 Post by **muggins** » Sat 01 Dec 2007, 06:27

Back in the 1960's there was a book written, by some biochemist, about how toxic white sugar was. All the alternatives & nutritionists quoted it as gospel. How surprising when it was revealed his research was sponsored by the manufacturers of artificial sweeteners!

oblivious · #3 Post by **oblivious** » Sat 01 Dec 2007, 06:46

Back in the 1960's there was a book written, by some biochemist, about how toxic white sugar was. All the alternatives & nutritionists quoted it as gospel. How surprising when it was revealed his research was sponsored by the manufacturers of artificial sweeteners!

So, you think that the results are neither objective, nor subjective, but paid for?

muggins · #4 Post by **muggins** » Sat 01 Dec 2007, 11:27

I was just being facetious. But I think with any reports, analyses etc, it's useful to question qui bono? Also, a lot of what we take as being easier, with say windows, is just that's the way we're used to doing things.

At least that's my subjective opinion.

oblivious · #5 Post by **oblivious** » Sat 01 Dec 2007, 11:34

I was just being facetious. But I think with any reports, analyses etc, it's useful to question qui bono?

Yes

Also, a lot of what we take as being easier, with say windows, is just that's the way we're used to doing things.

I should say that I entered parameters for a complete beginner, etc. so it would (presumably) indicate ease of use for someone accustomed to windows, or nothing at all.
I just found it so completely at odds with my opinion about Puppy that I questioned my own subjective opinion. Maybe I'm immensely knowledgeable after all, and not a stupid newbie who can't do anything

Ian · #6 Post by **Ian** » Sat 01 Dec 2007, 15:55

I suppose it all depends on your attitude, do you want a distro that requires no thinking on your part and is similar in usage to what you are used to doing or do you wish to have a new experience and the freedom to learn and create even if only in a small way.

gerry · #7 Post by **gerry** » Sat 01 Dec 2007, 18:04

It's the easiest distro that I've found yet, so long as you want to do what it does.

There's none of that root login stuff, file permissions, and so on, that are continually getting in your way on most distro's. Debian even expects you to log in again when you get back to your computer with your cup of tea.

Puppy doesn't have a repository with thousands of packages and Synaptic to install them for you at the click of a mouse. If that's what you need, then you may find Puppy more complicated. But not much!

And the forum- best by far. No rtfm here.

Gerry

jonyo · #8 Post by **jonyo** » Sat 01 Dec 2007, 19:34

Beg to differ but..there is a ton of attitude here by more than a few..
The issue has been raised but as of yet, there has been no direct response to this one http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 5149#15514 from mods (or anyone else..) so I have to assume that it's no big deal here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTFM

When evaluating whether it is acceptable to express sentiments like RTFM, one must consider the trade-off between maintaining the usability of an Internet forum for its existing users, and making a forum welcoming to newcomers.

Others I've seen plenty of are ffs (used this once myself), WTF & i'm sure there are others..including this link http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=GIYF

As with RTFM, it carries a cruder double-entendre along the lines of "Get It Yourself F**ker"

Ad hominems? Examples have been pointed out but..par for the course here. Don't agree with someone? Heh.. You may have ~ "intellectual incapacities that leave you incapable of rational discussion".. & there are many more I could point out.. including all of the above with links.

For my position & pointing some of this out before, I've been admonished (mod said it was getting "morbid"

..heh..it was halloween

) so there you have it.

But I'd agree, the tone is mostly wonderful by most.

gerry · #9 Post by **gerry** » Sat 01 Dec 2007, 22:08

Oops! Wish I hadn't gone down that road. It's so easy when someone asks "Is your favourite distro easier/more difficult, better/worse, than others?"

Gerry

Volsung · #10 Post by **Volsung** » Sun 02 Dec 2007, 04:09

I would say that it is mostly subjective. Perhaps the only objective way would be to take a decently intelligent person who has not been exposed to computers, give them both things and ask which is easier to use. Still, that is not an excellent test b/c there are still a lot of variables.

@jonyo
I have only had the rtfm/giyf attitude from one user, but I know him IRL so that is to be expected.

@gerry

Puppy doesn't have a repository with thousands of packages and Synaptic to install them for you at the click of a mouse. If that's what you need, then you may find Puppy more complicated. But not much!

I beg to differ here. PetGet may not have thousands of packages, but it does have a lot and can install them all with the click of a mouse. Alien packages (once in .tar.gz format in which most come) install with like 3 clicks. It then goes through and checks and installs dependencies. MU has also written a wonderful package fetcher (pun intended)(buh dum psh). This doesn't complicate puppy much at all. In fact, I find I don't even use it if the file is not a tarball. I just uncompress and DL libraries.

gerry · #11 Post by **gerry** » Sun 02 Dec 2007, 07:48

I did say what you said: "But not much".

Gerry

gerry · #12 Post by **gerry** » Sun 02 Dec 2007, 07:57

Anyway, to get back to what the original poster raised:

The ease of use of Puppy was what convinced me to stay with Linux, after I'd tried several others.

How's that?

Gerry

Rickrandom · #13 Post by **Rickrandom** » Sun 02 Dec 2007, 08:31

I have tried another big version of Linux, but it took forever to load from live CD, then after getting a desktop and trying a few things, it locked up (or at least appeared to).

Puppy worked quickly and easily first time for me, even on an old 300MHz 128MB machine, even with my total absence of Linux experience.

Slightly off-topic, but my view is that Puppy has things 95% right for most users, but needs more attention to quite a lot of details, so that they 99.9% work for 99.9% of users.

Ian · #14 Post by **Ian** » Sun 02 Dec 2007, 09:39

Because there are many different versions of Puppy out there on the net I would think that there would be almost one to suit different tastes, needs & requiremernts.

That said, because I have only looked at a couple of them I cannot comment on all of them. This might be the basis for a Puppy project, comparing and writing reviews on all of them so that people could see if there is one that fits their requirements.

My understanding of RTFM is "Read The Freshest Manual"

.

Personally I would say "Please RTFM" but it is easier to try to explain things than waiting for someone to do their own research either because they do not know where to start or are reluctant to become mired down in things they do not understand.

I use my library or the net when I am trying to work something out and so far this has worked very well, of course most things are simple once you understand them and only require commonsense to sort out.

Bruce B · #15 Post by **Bruce B** » Sun 02 Dec 2007, 11:56

Ian,

Actually, nobody ever said RTFM to me. I've seen it written, and tend to think it has the negative and even insulting connotation.

Here's an easy link for other opinions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTFM

Regards,

Bruce

Bruce B · #16 Post by **Bruce B** » Sun 02 Dec 2007, 11:59

I'd just like to express a minority opinion here. The opinion is "Puppy is hard to use."

In order to support my argument I give the following example of what we have to go through just to open a web browser.

1) boot puppy

2) single click on the SeaMonkey icon

I rest my case.

Ian · #17 Post by **Ian** » Sun 02 Dec 2007, 13:58

I second the opinion.

The long time it takes for SeaMonkey to start and open a web page, well!

I almost have time to blink twice.

hillside · #18 Post by **hillside** » Sun 02 Dec 2007, 14:27

because it said it was geared to "knowledgeable" people

""knowledgeable" people" no doubt refers to those who have knowledge of how hard it is to use some other operating systems and how easy it is to use Puppy.

I'm wondering if they are actually making a reference to Puppy's way of always operating as root. A lot of linux users will tell you that only experts should be messing around as root.

One other quick comment about reading the bleeping manual. It's actually kind of hard for a newbie to find the manual. The main start-up Puppy page doesn't have an apparent link to it, or if it's there, it's buried in a pile of information. Even the wiki puts the link to the manual up with the download link for 3.01, not with the rest of the bulleted topics.

It's great to have tons of info available, but sometimes it's hard for the uninitiated to sort through it all. I've been through most of it a couple of times and I still have trouble finding information when I need it.

When referencing an online doc, try to give the link. Maybe on those bad days, typing RTFM at www.puppy-linux.info/en/manual/main.html may be more appropriate.

gerry · #19 Post by **gerry** » Sun 02 Dec 2007, 16:00

Hear-hear! I'd been using Puppy for several months before I discovered that there IS a manual, let alone where to find it.

Gerry

oblivious · #20 Post by **oblivious** » Mon 03 Dec 2007, 01:11

It's great to have tons of info available, but sometimes it's hard for the uninitiated to sort through it all. I've been through most of it a couple of times and I still have trouble finding information when I need it.

Maybe that's what the recommendations are judged on - a quick look at the distro's website and how organized the information is. Maybe it has something to do with running as root. Maybe they think it is easier to use something that loads everything but the Out house sink so that if you plug in the latest do-dad you don't have to figure out how to work it. Who knows? At least I'm not the only one who thinks Puppy is not difficult.

I find that it is difficult finding specific info for any of the distros I've looked at - there's too much information and you tend to get bogged down.

In my experience, there are people who can be bothered with newbie questions, and those who can't. Those who can seem to be more in number - for every "this has been asked a million times", "why don't you google?" or "read the manual" answer, there are several "look here" or "do this" answers.

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Puppy ease of use - "choosing distro" site says its hard?

Puppy ease of use - "choosing distro" site says its hard?