To the world at large Ubuntu is synonymous with Linux. There may even be some who are aware of Ubuntu but not Linux.
Recently an article about productivity software in a Linux print magazine prominently featured Puppy Linux as a “portable office
The Future of Puppy Linux
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puppyite
The Future of Puppy Linux
Last edited by puppyite on Mon 23 May 2011, 15:09, edited 3 times in total.
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MinHundHettePerro
- Posts: 852
- Joined: Thu 05 Feb 2009, 22:22
- Location: SE
I cannot speak for the person your asking permission to post from. But, I would be very interested in what you'd have to say on the matter discussed. So, please, aarf, make your (disobedient) post and share your much appreciated views on the subject.aarf wrote:Can you ask nooby if i am allowed to reply to this thread please
Cheers
/ MHHP[color=green]Celeron 2.8 GHz, 1 GB, i82845, many ptns, modes 12, 13
Dual Xeon 3.2 GHz, 1 GB, nvidia quadro nvs 285[/color]
Slackos & 214X, ... and Q6xx
[color=darkred]Nämen, vaf....[/color] [color=green]ln -s /dev/null MHHP[/color]
Dual Xeon 3.2 GHz, 1 GB, nvidia quadro nvs 285[/color]
Slackos & 214X, ... and Q6xx
[color=darkred]Nämen, vaf....[/color] [color=green]ln -s /dev/null MHHP[/color]
Puppyite, it's guys like you that are good for Puppy in many ways. No doubt that Puppy deserves more recognition. But 90% of the public at large doesn't know the difference between a search bar and an address bar, let alone that Linux is a better OS. For that matter, most people don't know what an OS is, all they know is to "click the E" to "do the computer".
Be that as it may, I agree with Barry's take on the whole Puppyverse idea, there is room for different versions.
You and I are well aware of how great Puppy is but there are plenty of folks who do not get it. And that is a whole other discussion in itself. Barry has come up with an extremely workable system which is fast, small and stable as it is. I've always had the impression that Puppy is not trying to be anything other than Puppy, and any source of dissatisfaction comes from expectations outside of what Puppy is out of the box as compared to distros that are 10x larger than Puppy and that are intended from the start to be fully installed on a hard drive.
Being able to use other system binaries is great but I have been on some epic library hunts, and not just with lupu. I would hope for more exposure because that might attract more clever people who can do the compiling and scripting that average users like myself can't (read: haven't figured out how to) do to produce pets.
But being Puppy that also means that I can grab source from some project and compile the whole thing myself if I want, doesn't matter if I'm using lupu, wary, spup, dpup, teh gray, lighthouse, txz, PAW, because there's a devx for that. To me that is just awesome, it means Puppy is effectively binary-agnostic.
Be that as it may, I agree with Barry's take on the whole Puppyverse idea, there is room for different versions.
You and I are well aware of how great Puppy is but there are plenty of folks who do not get it. And that is a whole other discussion in itself. Barry has come up with an extremely workable system which is fast, small and stable as it is. I've always had the impression that Puppy is not trying to be anything other than Puppy, and any source of dissatisfaction comes from expectations outside of what Puppy is out of the box as compared to distros that are 10x larger than Puppy and that are intended from the start to be fully installed on a hard drive.
Being able to use other system binaries is great but I have been on some epic library hunts, and not just with lupu. I would hope for more exposure because that might attract more clever people who can do the compiling and scripting that average users like myself can't (read: haven't figured out how to) do to produce pets.
But being Puppy that also means that I can grab source from some project and compile the whole thing myself if I want, doesn't matter if I'm using lupu, wary, spup, dpup, teh gray, lighthouse, txz, PAW, because there's a devx for that. To me that is just awesome, it means Puppy is effectively binary-agnostic.
[b]Tahr Pup 6 on desktop, Lucid 3HD on lappie[/b]
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aarf
Thanks MHHP but I am not sure I have noobys permission to speak to you or even in this section. It would also probably impinge on the limited number of words i am permitted to write each day so i have to be frugal with them.MinHundHettePerro wrote:I cannot speak for the person your asking permission to post from. But, I would be very interested in what you'd have to say on the matter discussed. So, please, aarf, make your (disobedient) post and share your much appreciated views on the subject.aarf wrote:Can you ask nooby if i am allowed to reply to this thread please
Cheers
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puppyite
My thoughts
My take on this is that the devs will go the way they want to go.
As long as PCs come pre-installed with Windows, it will remain dominant. If you have ever actually installed Windows on a laptop starting with a generic Windows disk, you know that it is much harder and more time-consuming than installing any Linux distribution (distro). The strength of Windows lies not so much in the OS itself -- except for the drivers available for devices -- but in the (especially) business applications that users can buy. If these apps were available in Linux, Windows would be relegated to a consumer OS and probably not be in a dominant position.
While there are numerous magazines dealing with Windows, there are a few that deal with Linux and even fewer with Ubuntu alone. So a magazine mentioning Puppy Linux only in connection with Ubuntu doesn't mean much to me.
My experience with Linux affirms that Puppy Linux is the easiest and most flexible to install and use and due to the care of the devs, especially Barry Kauler and a fellow Canadian, ttuuuxx, in eliminating bloat and in including the drivers that people need to use their PCs. It is also the distro with the friendliest and most helpful community. While an official pet manager exists, unofficial pets are made available on ad hoc basis. This is a a disadvantage of Puppy Linux.
I do explore other Linux distros and can tell you that once you leave Puppy behind, the user friendliness drops off.
In reality, there are not too many basic Linux distros. Aside from Puppy Linux, most distros are based on the one of the following:
Debian, Fedora, Arch, Gentoo and Slackware, openSUSE and Mandriva.
None of these is very user friendly. Their devs assume that everyone has a DVD burner. Some of them, especially Fedora, assume that the only other OS you have on your hard disk is Windows, and they all require a full install to be functional. Sometimes you will find it hard to find drivers for your devices and a lot of the forums are decidedly not helpful.
Ubuntu is based on Debian but, unlike Debian, strives to be more user friendly. They also are more helpful but again they want you to do a full install.
Since the basic Linux distros have been around for a number of years (the oldest being Slackware from 1993), an enormous number of applications with regular (security) updates are available. In fact, you could say that in many cases devs have created new distros to enable users to more easily gain access to these applications and their updates in a more user friendly manner.
Because of Puppy Linux's independent character, the way it can take advantage of the repositories of a distro is to install (bloat-reduced) versions of that distro's basic libraries. Basically, some distros are easier to work with than others and that will help to determine what distro the devs want to work with.
myke
As long as PCs come pre-installed with Windows, it will remain dominant. If you have ever actually installed Windows on a laptop starting with a generic Windows disk, you know that it is much harder and more time-consuming than installing any Linux distribution (distro). The strength of Windows lies not so much in the OS itself -- except for the drivers available for devices -- but in the (especially) business applications that users can buy. If these apps were available in Linux, Windows would be relegated to a consumer OS and probably not be in a dominant position.
While there are numerous magazines dealing with Windows, there are a few that deal with Linux and even fewer with Ubuntu alone. So a magazine mentioning Puppy Linux only in connection with Ubuntu doesn't mean much to me.
My experience with Linux affirms that Puppy Linux is the easiest and most flexible to install and use and due to the care of the devs, especially Barry Kauler and a fellow Canadian, ttuuuxx, in eliminating bloat and in including the drivers that people need to use their PCs. It is also the distro with the friendliest and most helpful community. While an official pet manager exists, unofficial pets are made available on ad hoc basis. This is a a disadvantage of Puppy Linux.
I do explore other Linux distros and can tell you that once you leave Puppy behind, the user friendliness drops off.
In reality, there are not too many basic Linux distros. Aside from Puppy Linux, most distros are based on the one of the following:
Debian, Fedora, Arch, Gentoo and Slackware, openSUSE and Mandriva.
None of these is very user friendly. Their devs assume that everyone has a DVD burner. Some of them, especially Fedora, assume that the only other OS you have on your hard disk is Windows, and they all require a full install to be functional. Sometimes you will find it hard to find drivers for your devices and a lot of the forums are decidedly not helpful.
Ubuntu is based on Debian but, unlike Debian, strives to be more user friendly. They also are more helpful but again they want you to do a full install.
Since the basic Linux distros have been around for a number of years (the oldest being Slackware from 1993), an enormous number of applications with regular (security) updates are available. In fact, you could say that in many cases devs have created new distros to enable users to more easily gain access to these applications and their updates in a more user friendly manner.
Because of Puppy Linux's independent character, the way it can take advantage of the repositories of a distro is to install (bloat-reduced) versions of that distro's basic libraries. Basically, some distros are easier to work with than others and that will help to determine what distro the devs want to work with.
myke
AA1 D255E-keucr slacko 5.3;luci;mijnpup; tw-os; with:Emacs,gawk,noteboxmismanager,treesheets, freeplane, libreoffice, tkoutline, Sigil, calibre, calendar. magic&Noteliner(wine), kamas (DOS)
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puppyite
The article I cited was in a general interest Linux magazine. There are numerous Linux magazines at my local Borders or Barnes and Noble. The purpose of the article was a review of Linux productivity apps. Among those apps were Abiword, Gnumeric, Osmo and others whose names I don’t recall at the moment. Apologies if I failed to make this clear in my OP.
aarf
I must've missed nooby gaining ruler status over you....or is this an ongoing joke I missed....?
Puppyite
Whilst *buntu has had a big impact on the public perception of Linux as a desktop OS....I believe Puppy stands on its own feet, and cannot be matched for size speed convenience and fun all in one package, whichever variant is chosen to play with....however, Puppy is not targeted to Office environment use, which is where *buntu is beginning to bite out a chunk of 'that other OS everybody loves to hate but uses'
All publicity ultimately improves public awareness of Puppy - even the bad stuff
Keep on keeping on - you will be assimilated, eventually
Aitch
I must've missed nooby gaining ruler status over you....or is this an ongoing joke I missed....?
Puppyite
Whilst *buntu has had a big impact on the public perception of Linux as a desktop OS....I believe Puppy stands on its own feet, and cannot be matched for size speed convenience and fun all in one package, whichever variant is chosen to play with....however, Puppy is not targeted to Office environment use, which is where *buntu is beginning to bite out a chunk of 'that other OS everybody loves to hate but uses'
All publicity ultimately improves public awareness of Puppy - even the bad stuff
Keep on keeping on - you will be assimilated, eventually
Aitch
Puppy's integration with Ubuntu's repositories and compatibility has created a major problem for puppy that I've observed. So many people now seem to see puppy as an Ubuntu derivative, not an independent distro with binary compatibility with Ubuntu.
This is a shame, for all the reasons mentioned in this thread, that puppy is so much more superior than anything else. If someone has used ubuntu and didn't like it, and wants to move forward, they will probably strike puppy off this list immediately because so many reviews and perceptions state that puppy is a derivative.
I agree, that using ubuntu's repositories is awesome, broadening the application base for puppy, but, if it wasn't promoted as being ubuntu's. Just have it there as a feature, using ubuntu, but keeping the distance to not be confused with ubuntu.
I like tubeguy's thinking, puppy is brilliant on its own four feet. Personally, I haven't had the greatest success with installing ubuntu stuff anyway, it still needs work, but then, I haven't needed to use it because puppy has so much of its own stuff either in it by default, or on this forum.
This is a shame, for all the reasons mentioned in this thread, that puppy is so much more superior than anything else. If someone has used ubuntu and didn't like it, and wants to move forward, they will probably strike puppy off this list immediately because so many reviews and perceptions state that puppy is a derivative.
I agree, that using ubuntu's repositories is awesome, broadening the application base for puppy, but, if it wasn't promoted as being ubuntu's. Just have it there as a feature, using ubuntu, but keeping the distance to not be confused with ubuntu.
I like tubeguy's thinking, puppy is brilliant on its own four feet. Personally, I haven't had the greatest success with installing ubuntu stuff anyway, it still needs work, but then, I haven't needed to use it because puppy has so much of its own stuff either in it by default, or on this forum.
Nooby is an annoyance. I get back later I have promised to test an iso and I am back here and will clear the sky from all the Nooby smoke getting thick.
Aarf, now I get why you are grumpy on poor old Nooby. I told you to not derail another thread. Yes that is up to the Mods to decide or the OP of the thread. So like MHHP says. Share what is on your mind. Who cares about what Nooby ramble anyway
Aitch I thought it was a joke too but reading this thread I must trust that aarf take it very personally. Did I not write that I am the first to admit that I often too often do derail and that I wished that we would not do it in that thread. Why would that makes you so personally upset. I just tried to be fair to that new guy. We have no right to derail his first thread here. Okay!!!
Tubeguy I love what you write here
Quote
Barry has come up with an extremely workable system which is fast, small and stable as it is.
I've always had the impression that Puppy is not trying to be anything other than Puppy, and any source of dissatisfaction comes from expectations outside of what Puppy is out of the box as compared to distros that are 10x larger than Puppy and that are intended from the start to be fully installed on a hard drive. /quote
Puppy should warn that Puppy is as the Devs wants it to be not what the new users are conditioned or imprinted to expect from a standard Linux distro. Puppy sure are different.
I agree with p310don that it can be a problem that Lucid puppy will give people too high expectations what Puppy can do using ubuntu repository straight from their repo in updating stuff of Puppy.
Many newbies gets too high expectations and them like me think that Puppy has 300 well paid Devs lurking for to instantly follow all my wild wishes.
Aarf, now I get why you are grumpy on poor old Nooby. I told you to not derail another thread. Yes that is up to the Mods to decide or the OP of the thread. So like MHHP says. Share what is on your mind. Who cares about what Nooby ramble anyway
Aitch I thought it was a joke too but reading this thread I must trust that aarf take it very personally. Did I not write that I am the first to admit that I often too often do derail and that I wished that we would not do it in that thread. Why would that makes you so personally upset. I just tried to be fair to that new guy. We have no right to derail his first thread here. Okay!!!
Tubeguy I love what you write here
Quote
Barry has come up with an extremely workable system which is fast, small and stable as it is.
I've always had the impression that Puppy is not trying to be anything other than Puppy, and any source of dissatisfaction comes from expectations outside of what Puppy is out of the box as compared to distros that are 10x larger than Puppy and that are intended from the start to be fully installed on a hard drive. /quote
Puppy should warn that Puppy is as the Devs wants it to be not what the new users are conditioned or imprinted to expect from a standard Linux distro. Puppy sure are different.
I agree with p310don that it can be a problem that Lucid puppy will give people too high expectations what Puppy can do using ubuntu repository straight from their repo in updating stuff of Puppy.
Many newbies gets too high expectations and them like me think that Puppy has 300 well paid Devs lurking for to instantly follow all my wild wishes.
Last edited by nooby on Sat 07 May 2011, 08:51, edited 2 times in total.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though
not an ideal solution though
That is up to the user to decide on but there is a catch.puppyite wrote:There is no reason why Puppy Linux can’t be a world class distro (a.k.a. number one) and still achieve it’s core purpose.tubeguy wrote:Puppy is not trying to be anything other than Puppy
Barry will decide on which derivate that he officially sanction but all of us can make use of the GPL and produce something with another name as long as we give Barry full credit in in having his name on the parts he contributed with so if you and I and others want a Puppy that work as you say then you and I have to start working on it and inspire others to join in and we can not expect Barry or any of the others to join if they don't feel for it.
As I get it that is the way it is. They way life is. People only do what they are feel motivated for to do unless we pay them to think it is fun to do it. Not sure if that would help much.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though
not an ideal solution though
Why?nooby wrote: Puppy should warn that Puppy is as the Devs wants it to be not what the new users are conditioned or imprinted to expect from a standard Linux distro. Puppy sure are different.
I think we are far more user oriented than most distros. Admittedly Slackware is not that nooby friendly nor does it pretend to be. But in saying that, it has to be one of the better communities out there with AlienBob, Onebuck, Gnashley (
) and co ready to lend a hand at the LQ forum.On the other hand, Ubuntu is intended to be user friendly but their forums are like stepping into a refrigerator.
Puppy is meant to be different. Just now Barry is implementing "fido" as a non root user. It's very easy to swith back to root, just drop to console and su to root, xwin to X and you are back as root. I'm pretty sure Barry didn't do this for himself but as a reaction to all the talk that's been going on for years that Puppy is unsafe, it runs as root!
There is alot of user friendly innovations in 525 that playdayz and myself (with much help) worked on which I hope to improve upon. The base libraries and such make no difference to the out of the box experience. As long as there are a suitable selection of apps for every task then I think most will come away with a smile on their face.
So, I would say we are very user focused.
Footnote: Natty puppy is buildable. I know, I built one a month or so ago. So if anyone wants to build it I can offer tips. Just post or PM me.
Puppy Linux Blog - contact me for access
Yes but we do have users that do expect that Lucid Puppy can use any kind of Ubuntu file directly from their repo without first being puppyfied and is that really so? And some of them who find their ways to our forum also expect that updates on Ubuntu would autmatically update their Lupu525 that is what they tell us here. So they do get the wrong impression from scratch and get surprised it is not as they expected.
I fully agree that Puppy forum is exceptionally friendly environ and care about the users. But is it not also true that Devs do what Devs want and not what the user wants. I mean there is still puppies with Seamonkey as first choice and I have tried for hours now and it is impossible to use Seaside's SFS-Exec to load a Firefox.sfs on such a Puppy. Nothing happens while it work instantly on Snowpup and others that don't have SM on them.
So it all depends on where one put focus. Yes I love your Browse Safe and what Barry do now with Fido and in the end I trust something useful will come out of it. Sounds very promising indeed.
So I am grateful and praise Puppy, I only tell what happens with newcomers that fail to get the notice that Puppy not only are different but different in a way they fail to imagine.
so why should we not tell them that from scratch
I fully agree that Puppy forum is exceptionally friendly environ and care about the users. But is it not also true that Devs do what Devs want and not what the user wants. I mean there is still puppies with Seamonkey as first choice and I have tried for hours now and it is impossible to use Seaside's SFS-Exec to load a Firefox.sfs on such a Puppy. Nothing happens while it work instantly on Snowpup and others that don't have SM on them.
So it all depends on where one put focus. Yes I love your Browse Safe and what Barry do now with Fido and in the end I trust something useful will come out of it. Sounds very promising indeed.
So I am grateful and praise Puppy, I only tell what happens with newcomers that fail to get the notice that Puppy not only are different but different in a way they fail to imagine.
so why should we not tell them that from scratch
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though
not an ideal solution though
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puppyite
I’m reading mixed messages. Some of those messages are from people whose only involvement with Puppy Linux is blowing smoke in a forum.
About Ubuntu and Puppy Linux:
Anyone who seriously confuses Ubuntu with Puppy Linux is either misinformed and needs to be re-educated or is too dim to know the difference.
About whether Puppy Linux can be a number one distro:
The only thing that can prevent Puppy Linux from becoming a number one distro is a lack of will. If devs or anyone lack that will then they should reconsider their involvement with Puppy Linux or find a project, distro they can whole heatedly support.
About Ubuntu and Puppy Linux:
Anyone who seriously confuses Ubuntu with Puppy Linux is either misinformed and needs to be re-educated or is too dim to know the difference.
About whether Puppy Linux can be a number one distro:
The only thing that can prevent Puppy Linux from becoming a number one distro is a lack of will. If devs or anyone lack that will then they should reconsider their involvement with Puppy Linux or find a project, distro they can whole heatedly support.
I've just read this here and took a look at Barry's blog to check it out.01micko wrote:Just now Barry is implementing "fido" as a non root user.
I posted comment on his blog here http://bkhome.org/blog/?viewDetailed=02240
puppy.b0x.me stuff mirrored [url=https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_Mb589v0iCXNnhSZWRwd3R2UWs]HERE[/url] or [url=http://archive.org/details/Puppy_Linux_puppy.b0x.me_mirror]HERE[/url]
Dejan, I think what Barry do now with Fido and your comment illustrate is that Puppy is different. Barry set it up like he find okay with him.
Sure he reads you advices but then he decide on what feels okay for him to implement or not.
To expect anything else would most likely make us lose puppy altogether.
But maybe I am the smoke blower that Puppyite talks about. Not that I want to but my impression from new users are that they have a lot of preconceived ideas and that Puppy fail to tell them upfront that that is not how Puppy is supposed to work. What we see here in the forum are only a tiny fragment of all those that get the wrong impression but neer tell us here about it.
Quote from Puppyite
Some of those messages are from people whose only involvement with Puppy Linux is blowing smoke in a forum. /quote
Sure he reads you advices but then he decide on what feels okay for him to implement or not.
To expect anything else would most likely make us lose puppy altogether.
But maybe I am the smoke blower that Puppyite talks about. Not that I want to but my impression from new users are that they have a lot of preconceived ideas and that Puppy fail to tell them upfront that that is not how Puppy is supposed to work. What we see here in the forum are only a tiny fragment of all those that get the wrong impression but neer tell us here about it.
Quote from Puppyite
Some of those messages are from people whose only involvement with Puppy Linux is blowing smoke in a forum. /quote
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though
not an ideal solution though
nooby, I'm not demanding anything, there's no reason to loose puppy or him getting angry or something, just giving my opinion on subject.
Barry's decisions will always be final and I respect that.
Puppy is his creation afterall.
Personally I didn't even think he is going to start that project.
Barry's decisions will always be final and I respect that.
Puppy is his creation afterall.
Personally I didn't even think he is going to start that project.
puppy.b0x.me stuff mirrored [url=https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_Mb589v0iCXNnhSZWRwd3R2UWs]HERE[/url] or [url=http://archive.org/details/Puppy_Linux_puppy.b0x.me_mirror]HERE[/url]