Desert ranch confrontation

[greengeek]

There is an interesting conflict on a dusty ranch in Bunkerville, Nevada, which some are describing as a confrontation between constitutionally backed civilians and illegally empowered law enforcement officials.

A posse of about 500 civilians armed with horses and guns faced down the law enforcement officers who are trying to oust the rancher so they can sell his land to the Chinese. The civilians aim to bust the balls of officials who tread on U.S civilians instead of upholding the constitution. Sounds like a scene from a movie but it's real.

Here is a quote from one of the civilian opposition, threatening to arrest the law enforcement officials:.

"He will be incarcerated if he fails to uphold his oath to the U.S. Constitution... he will go to jail."

it'll be interesting to see what happens next. Maybe a comeback for constitutional power?

Background story:
1) Discussion of historical timeline

2) Both sides of the debate (but necessary to read the whole article as the first half is less balanced)

3) Transcript of recording between officer and civilian threatening each other with arrest here
.

[Flash]

This rancher has been grazing cattle on public land without paying for it. The government, prodded by various environmental groups, has been trying in a halfhearted way to make him stop it for nearly 20 years.

Tim DeChristopher disrupted an illegal auction of drilling rights on public land during the Bush administration, by bidding on certain of the allotments when he had no intention of paying. The incoming Obama administration later invalidated the auction on the grounds that it should never had taken place. Nevertheless, DeChristopher was arrested, tried and sent to prison for what he did.

The difference appears to be that DeChristopher's supporters were not packing guns and threatening violence.

Obama was a professor of Constitutional law. If he'd been a professor of history, he might know about Shays' rebellion.

[rokytnji]

Being a small owner myself of a small ranch on the mexican border.

But mineral rights not owned by me. Because of the Govt.
Border patrol speeding by at 100 plus mph. Because of the govt.
Getting pulled over even though they know who I am. Because of the Govt.
Drones and planes and choppers overhead. Because of the Govt.
Motion Detectors and sniffers and monitor devices every where. Because of the Govt.
All land in the county outside of my place in certain tracks has chinese owners on the tax rolls.
Only Public govt land is the levy and rio grande.
Checkpoints on the roads. Because of the Govt.
Nepotism and underhand law enforcement practices, (not everyone, but a few enough to notice).

They sure act like they own the whole border.
The govt is a gang like the crips and the Hells Angels.
Just the uniforms look different.

I wish the nevada owner luck.

Saddest thing I saw years ago was when a neighbor rancher friend lost his place to taxes and I watched him go mad by spreading diesel among the creosote and mesquite tress and his ranch house trying to burn the whole desert down.

My ranch place is empty now. I am a town dweller now. I miss it.

[Ibidem]

I've gotten the impression that this whole incident proves that it's quite possible for no parties involved in a controversy to be in the right.
Anyhow, the historic background that isn't mentioned in the articles (as far as I can tell):
Late 1800s: Bundy family establishes ranch; under existing laws, they acquire water + grazing rights for a large area.
Early 1900s: Ranchers across the West make arrangements with federal agencies for assistance in management, in excange for a fee.
1930s: Congress converts grazing rights to allotments, held by lease.
In practical terms, there's little change as far as how things go.
Legally, however, it means that grazing rights are now leased from the feds.
1990s: BLM starts changing grazing allotment terms. Bundy decides he doesn't need their assistance in management anymore (see early 1900s), and stops paying fees to them. IIRC, I saw claims that he then started writing checks in the same amount to Clark County, which Clark County has refused to cash; I can't find that article at present.
He's been taken to court; when he was defeated, he just expected that Nevada would appeal the case, on the grounds of the land being state land.

I get the impression that his logic is that grazing rights are a form of title, and thus land where grazing rights were granted fell under the jurisdiction of the state.
As to the second half, I'm skeptical.
As to the first half, I saw something about the 9th circuit deciding in another case that land where grazing rights had been granted was not in the public domain.
That would seem to mean that there might be somewhat of an eminent domain issue here, and also to partially discredit the claims of the environmentalists.

[greengeek]

That would seem to mean that there might be somewhat of an eminent domain issue here,

I see parallels in my own country where high value land (eg waterfront reserves, reclaimed estuaries, and public roads in expensive suburbs) become 'allocated' to the wealthy rather than available in the public domain.

Superyachts now berth where I used to fish as a young boy, and you are not even allowed to row a dinghy anywhere in the area. I don't like it when public areas become locked up as resources for an elite subset of society.

Mind you I guess it's a bit different if such an area is then used for the benefit of all - like mining for example. I wonder if there is uranium ore in the Nevada desert?

[Moose On The Loose]

[quote="Ibidem"]I've gotten the impression that this whole incident proves that it's quite possible for no parties involved in a controversy to be in the right.
Anyhow, the historic background that isn't mentioned in the articles (as far as I can tell):
Late 1800s:
[quote]

We also shouldn't forget that the history started some time before the late 1800s and if it is land within the US, it is practically certain that the land "changed hands by force of arms" and likely that it happened more than once. Saying anyone is in the right may not be even an option here.

[bark_bark_bark]

Saying anyone is in the right may not be even an option here.

I don't really know what is going on here, but just root for the ranchers. Anyone who opposes the government is the right one (and also the one that will lose anyways).

[greengeek]

Here is a quote from Patrick Shea, the former BLM director.
[quote]“Eventually, you have to draw the line. We go through these sad episodes where fanaticism has to be brought under legal control. And inevitably, somebody is killed.

[8-bit]

I had read of a related article where some senator had made a deal with a Chinese outfit for use of the property in dispute for a wind farm.
It was further stated that this senator encouraged harassment of the rancher in hopes of getting his land too!

[Flash]

I had read of a related article where some senator had made a deal with a Chinese outfit for use of the property in dispute for a wind farm.
It was further stated that this senator encouraged harassment of the rancher in hopes of getting his land too!

What's the name of this related article and where did you read of it?

[Moose On The Loose]

Saying anyone is in the right may not be even an option here.

I don't really know what is going on here, but just root for the ranchers. Anyone who opposes the government is the right one (and also the one that will lose anyways).

I heard on the news something about a Mr Al Qaeda opposing the government.
Is that what you mean?

[Geoffrey]

I had read of a related article where some senator had made a deal with a Chinese outfit for use of the property in dispute for a wind farm.
It was further stated that this senator encouraged harassment of the rancher in hopes of getting his land too!

What's the name of this related article and where did you read of it?

Alex Jones http://www.infowars.com/breaking-sen-ha ... ndy-ranch/

[bugman-2.0]

You are the government, all of you. When you complain about the government, you complain about yourselves. If you don't like the way the government operates, vote better, and vote smarter.

[bark_bark_bark]

Saying anyone is in the right may not be even an option here.

I don't really know what is going on here, but just root for the ranchers. Anyone who opposes the government is the right one (and also the one that will lose anyways).

I heard on the news something about a Mr Al Qaeda opposing the government.
Is that what you mean?

No

[bark_bark_bark]

You are the government, all of you. When you complain about the government, you complain about yourselves. If you don't like the way the government operates, vote better, and vote smarter.

Even if you vote smarter, we the 99% will still never have power. Only the billionaires have the power

[bugman-2.0]

You are the government, all of you. When you complain about the government, you complain about yourselves. If you don't like the way the government operates, vote better, and vote smarter.

Even if you vote smarter, we the 99% will still never have power. Only the billionaires have the power

As long as you keep voting for their lackeys, yes. And don't be fooled, their lackeys are on the side of the rancher.

[linuxbear]

BLM starts changing grazing allotment terms. Bundy decides he doesn't need their assistance in management anymore (see early 1900s), and stops paying fees to them. IIRC, I saw claims that he then started writing checks in the same amount to Clark County, which Clark County has refused to cash; I can't find that article at present.

Bundy is also claiming that the government has no right to state land. Something like 80% of Nevada is owned by the US Covernment (BLM) they acquired ownership at the same time they annexed California

[Flash]

Well, states have to petition to become one of the United States, and before they can be accepted into the club, they have to have a constitution, etc.. "Annexed" doesn't seem like quite the right word.

Anyway, according to Wikipedia, what eventually became Nevada was part of the Mexican Cession, when the U.S. government acquired most of what is now the southwestern U.S. from Mexico after a war. So the federal government owned all the land in the territory of Nevada until Nevada became a state, and retained most of it afterward. At the time, most people thought it was worthless desert. Bundy's folks appear to have been squatters.

[8-bit]

This is additional information on the government's actions concerning Bundy and the ranch.
It seems Gov Reid is calling the supporters of Bundy terrorists and says he is not through taking action against Bundy.
The link is a CNN report found here.

[georg1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAwALTdrMZ8