A 'Lawyer' responds to the locked thread

Puppy related raves and general interest that doesn't fit anywhere else
Message
Author
User avatar
Aitch
Posts: 6518
Joined: Wed 04 Apr 2007, 15:57
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

A 'Lawyer' responds to the locked thread

#1 Post by Aitch »

From the "b*ll*cks thread" that got locked

To a Lawyer who will understand why I posted this, a principle exists

Audi alteram partem

Which translates as "to hear the other side"

Unadulterated as it arrived apart from email addresses

Make of it what you will

-
---- Original Message -----
From: "****** " <******@grotmail.com>
To: <RK@******.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:44 PM
Subject: Linux 'review'

Hi
I have just read an irate comment from a member of the Puppylinux forum, in response to your article, here;
http://legaltech.law.com/commentary-the-penguin-do.html

There have been many responses, many which may surprise you, in agreement with your sentiment

However the most telling is this:-
"But that is their entertainment, not their livelihood. If you're in it for the money, keep your distance from Linux and freeware."

The entertainment is a bunch of linux users siding up one way or the other in response to the original poster's outrage

Yet no-one actually addresses this issue you raise, which really puzzles me, as you cite a $219 refurbed Windows PC, which would have to have a licenced copy of Windows added to its cost,

ERROR: $219 is it, complete, with OS. http://www.microcenter.com/single_produ ... id=0292355 My point is that a newbie or a businessman doesn't save money spending a week and a half figuring out how to put Linux in and use it on something old, with the possibility that the real issue was the hardware all along, when he could simply buy something else with a good waranty from a big box retailer and have it on his desk and running in 10 minutes and not have to wonder whether his printer or scanner or monitor will work at all.

and which would require all the usual security updates/firewall/antivirus etc added, as well as a whole host of software & since you are opposed to FOSS will add to total cost of use
Linux may be tricky, but it is free, and once sorted doesn't need 'security updates etc' to stay working

So why do I keep getting them? PS; there isn't one Linux app that I found that wasn't available for free, and probably better for Windows either, not mentioning of course the apps you can't get at all.

You could make a good financial advantage over other lawfirms by reducing computing costs

Except for the unavailable software, which means having two sets of computers; the combat pay and time wasted for having staff deal with shitty, half-baked apps, and the extra malpractice costs inflicted by having unknown software, and perhaps unrecoverable or at least untimely recovery of lost data upon crash, and the hit for extra pay when they threaten to quit, and the additional and extensive retraining costs for new employees and ...

When you start writing paychecks yourself, get back to me.


You clearly have very little knowledge of computers or the net & the ways which it works, or you would realise that without linux, it probably would not be running at all, since the backbone of the web certainly doesn't run on Windows

See, you have to read the whole piece. I never said Linux has no place or that in the hands of IT professionals it is a mistake. Just that a lawyer (or for any matter anyone else not trained as an IT professional) shouldn't think he is going to save himself any money by switching over for his office, because he can't.

You have no idea how many people, like yourself, added whatever they pleased to what was actually on the page and yelled about that.



Perhaps you'd venture to comment a response to this:-
"He has done a careful job of removing incriminating evidence. I can find no date for his emails to the "developers" of Puppy or even on the article. Ever since I can remember, Barry's Puppy site has had explicit warnings about getting responses to email. This guy considers his time so valuable 15 minutes pays for Windows, while Barry's time appears to be free, naturally. He must have obtained the email address without reading this page.
http://puppylinux.com/bkauler/index.html
Without more information, it is impossible to pin him down."

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=32317

"...explicit warnings about getting responses to email..." Linux people crucify Microsoft for sloppy tech support, and here is a developer, presumably interested in making some money with the effort, actually posting warnings that no help is coming at all. Is this not a double standard (one of about a million of them)? That plus the GPL that says that there are no warranties (of course that is unnecessary because many developers don't have a dime or a published address and can't be sued anyway).

If Linux didn't leave especially newbies up Shit's Creek without a paddle, it might be interesting, but it doesn't and won't.


Thanks, Aitch
enjoy

Aitch :D

[Original available as evidence if required]

User avatar
WhoDo
Posts: 4428
Joined: Wed 12 Jul 2006, 01:58
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

Re: A 'Lawyer' responds to the locked thread

#2 Post by WhoDo »

Aitch wrote:From the "b*ll*cks thread" that got locked
Linux people crucify Microsoft for sloppy tech support, and here is a developer, presumably interested in making some money with the effort, actually posting warnings that no help is coming at all. Is this not a double standard (one of about a million of them)?
Yeah, well I was right with him up to a point but here is where he lost me. He has criticised Barry without researching the facts, and that's both atypical and unforgivable in a "lawyer" of any type.

1. His premise is false. Barry isn't "interested in making some money with the effort" at all! In fact he has categorically stated the opposite on his web site - it is purely a hobby for him, and meant to be fun; when it stops being fun he'll stop doing it! Ironically, that alone is enough reason NOT to use Puppy Linux on a critical business desktop. It is NOT sufficient reason to eschew ALL Linux, however.

2. Just because the lead developer doesn't guarantee support doesn't mean there isn't ANY support at all! Many GPL programs rely on support contracts to justify program maintenance and upgrades. That's pretty much like the printer manufacturers these days - giving away the printer in order to sell the consumables they require. It's called commoditisation of the product, in this case software, and has long been the basis of justification for much purpose-written commercial software.

The irony here is that Micro$oft has a well-documented habit of knowingly releasing flawed and/or incomplete software in order to begin to recoup its development costs earlier in the cycle. One might argue that providing fee-for-service "support" in those circumstances is tantamount to a fraudulent practice! At least there seems to be no such pretense in the Linux community. "Let the buyer beware" seems odd and somewhat inappropriate, but nevertheless entirely applicable.

This debate reminds me of the old saw; "For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation will suffice."
[i]Actions speak louder than words ... and they usually work when words don't![/i]
SIP:whodo@proxy01.sipphone.com; whodo@realsip.com

bugman

#3 Post by bugman »

the only good lawyer is an ex-lawyer

i used to work with nicholas lavroff [writes computer books]

i was a messenger, he was a lawyer [big sf corporate firm]

he invited me over for dinner, we smoked his pot, i told him what shits lawyers were

next thing i know...

[lobster, do i get good karma for liberation?]

User avatar
shroomy_bee
Posts: 536
Joined: Sat 28 Jun 2008, 16:54
Contact:

#4 Post by shroomy_bee »

Speaking of home computers and psychedelics, surely the lawyer guy could have gone for an Apple Mac if he is so interested in computers with good support that work out of the box and don't require any tweaking on the users part to get them to run.

User avatar
Flash
Official Dog Handler
Posts: 13071
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 16:04
Location: Arizona USA

#5 Post by Flash »

I don't think there are many applications for the Mac, that would be useful in a law office. Everything is written for Windows.

User avatar
Aitch
Posts: 6518
Joined: Wed 04 Apr 2007, 15:57
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

#6 Post by Aitch »

Not being rude or anything, but a quick search reveals

http://www.themaclawyer.com/the_mac_law ... aw-fi.html
And this year might not be business as usual for law IT departments. Many PC users must switch to a new computer operating system within the next two years. Unlike previous transition periods, there may be competition this time for Vista, the successor to Microsoft’s market-leading Windows XP operating system. And the most user-friendly challenge comes from Apple Inc.’s Macintosh line.
quite old, but even older

http://www.heckmanco.com/docs/hcnews29.htm

for our lawyer friend's perusal, since cost was one of his gripes
Then there is the question of cost. A full-fledged Novell distribution of Linux costs about $50, including technical support. To purchase Windows and Microsoft Office new on the market would cost you over $600. Even counting the steep discounts offered on new PCs, and/or upgrade pricing, you are still paying a premium to ensure the continuance of Microsoft’s 85% profit margins on Windows. Microsoft is reportedly virtually giving away its software to prevent large installations from switching to Linux.
there's probably loads more

Aitch

User avatar
Lobster
Official Crustacean
Posts: 15522
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 06:06
Location: Paradox Realm
Contact:

#7 Post by Lobster »

the only good lawyer is an ex-lawyer
They make good compost and thus may eventually be of some use.
he invited me over for dinner, we smoked his pot, i told him what shits lawyers were

next thing i know...

[lobster, do i get good karma for liberation?]
Telling a lawyer the truth can be a shocking experience
(they have never come across this possibility)

As you seem able to handle the truth
I would suggest that liberation is
not all its cracked up to be
It is however preferable to being a lawyer

How I wonder do we show compassion for these unfortunates?
Well in the case of this particular lawyer
I feel he showed promise.
Despite unpopularity he attempted to state what he saw as
the truth, that Linux is not suitable for lawyers.
I agree with him.
Let them use Windows!
Puppy Raspup 8.2Final 8)
Puppy Links Page http://www.smokey01.com/bruceb/puppy.html :D

User avatar
Billwho?
Posts: 559
Joined: Tue 06 Dec 2005, 09:28
Location: still "In The Dog House" East Coast Oz
Trialing 4.20

#8 Post by Billwho? »

Lobster wrote:Despite unpopularity he attempted to state what he saw as the truth
"Truthful lawyer"; Now there's an oxymoron if ever I heard one :!:
that Linux is not suitable for lawyers.
Unfortunately he got it backwards.
Lawyers are not suitable for Linux

Lawyers = Expensive, Secretive and Underhanded
Linux = Free, Open and Above-board
Lobster wrote: Let them use Windows!
I agree. A true match made in heaven (hell :?: :?: ).
Linux = Learning through doing :shock: :? :D
The learning curve may be steep but there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
You just have to pass the occasional oncoming train to get there.

Trobin
Posts: 968
Joined: Fri 19 Aug 2005, 03:16
Location: BC Canada

#9 Post by Trobin »

Why not try to refute the man's statements rather than throw rocks from afar. Show how Puppy can run the software he needs.

Or is this a case of we can dis him and huis views but he can't dis us and ours?

Sure seems like it.

User avatar
WhoDo
Posts: 4428
Joined: Wed 12 Jul 2006, 01:58
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

#10 Post by WhoDo »

Trobin wrote:Why not try to refute the man's statements rather than throw rocks from afar.
Um... I thought that's what I did, Trobin.

My problem with this particular man's statements is that they are demonstrably without foundation, both with respect to Linux in general and Puppy's lead developer in particular.

"Never let the facts get in the way of a good argument" ... isn't that a lawyer's credo? Are you defending the individual or the profession? The profession definitely needs defending at times, but the individual in this case has failed the fundamental test; knowing whereof you speak!

No personal offence intended, Trobin.
[i]Actions speak louder than words ... and they usually work when words don't![/i]
SIP:whodo@proxy01.sipphone.com; whodo@realsip.com

User avatar
Lobster
Official Crustacean
Posts: 15522
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 06:06
Location: Paradox Realm
Contact:

#11 Post by Lobster »

Why not try to refute the man's statements
Where is the fun in that? :twisted:
Arguing with lawyers or those who do not wish to use Linux
serves little purpose when the mind is already set.

His arguments seemed quite fair and I have no problem with them.
He made factual mistakes and these have been pointed out.

The argument amounted to 'Windows is better for lawyers.' OK good
Use it and be happy if that is your preference..

He stated that Puppy did not work on his system.
That is fine. It is useless to him if not willing to go further.

He prefers Windows.
So use it. Good luck to him.

I make fun of bloatware (large Linux distros)
Windows users and on special occasions lawyers. 8)

Many Puppy users also use Windows.
They are operating systems. Use them as appropriate to
your requirements.

Yes it is true that we can sit down and act like lawyers.
Countering arguments. Offering alternative viewpoints - if we wish.
Some have done so.

What you are suggesting is being reasonable.
That however is only one possibility . . . 8)
Puppy Raspup 8.2Final 8)
Puppy Links Page http://www.smokey01.com/bruceb/puppy.html :D

Trobin
Posts: 968
Joined: Fri 19 Aug 2005, 03:16
Location: BC Canada

#12 Post by Trobin »

Yes it is one possibility, and there have been a few reasonable replies. However there was also a circling of wagons against someone who dared to criticize linux and one who dared to defend the article.

User avatar
Aitch
Posts: 6518
Joined: Wed 04 Apr 2007, 15:57
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

#13 Post by Aitch »

Hi guys, I'm only going to post a quick comment, as I have received a warning for the thread this comes from

You will see at the top, and further explained to Flash in a pm, that I've used the maxim Audi alteram partem, without which, and a few open minded Judges, I would have been unable to practice law in UK as I briefly did.

However, this particular 'lawyer' would have been struck off by the disciplinary board, and warned by many Judges for both his manner and bad language, quite apart from errors in law, logic, and evidence

As far as I am concerned, hearing the other side, is not intended to be posted as a kicking exercise, merely an illustration of how not to make a point and win or how to commit public self destruct

I know the legal profession has a bad name, and that is because they have allowed self reverence to get in the way of facts and the law of fairness, but that is for the profession itself to deal with, though I firmly agree they are failing in this respect

IMHO it is impossible and pointless to have a level playing field if there is no enforcement of the rule of fairness, who's purpose, surely, is to reduce petty cat fights, and bring illumination to a dispute, to help maintain openness in our society/relationships

My own experience in law whilst dealing with a Court of Appeal case, and with very tight deadlines and vast tidy, duplicated times 4 bundles of documents necessary for such circumstance, was that a crucial instance of sytem crash nearly got me sanctioned and prevented from continuing, and that was definitely a windoze thing, not a linux one, and is far more common than many people realise!! [and one our 'lawyer friend' failed to mention!]

So bonus points to Trobin, and WhoDo, 0 points to a certain 'lawyer' and bandwaggoners

Please also remember we are a public forum, and we could take the higher moral ground and show where and why linux, Puppy in particular will in time prove better for lawyers as well as 'lesser mortals' :wink:

Aitch :D

User avatar
shroomy_bee
Posts: 536
Joined: Sat 28 Jun 2008, 16:54
Contact:

#14 Post by shroomy_bee »

Trobin that doesn't even begin to be true. The folks who directly criticised the article did so by explaining why it was wrong.

And there's no way that anyone was circling any wagons against ortopogo - who didn't defend what the lawyer bloke said anyway, the lawyers article was just used as a launchpad to insult other posters here and bait them into semantic entanglements! A read through of the thread unbiased makes that perfectly obvious.

User avatar
Aitch
Posts: 6518
Joined: Wed 04 Apr 2007, 15:57
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

#15 Post by Aitch »

Shroomy_bee

I don't want this thread to become like the other, nor does Flash, however there is a danger here of crossover references to what was said & done in the original thread, and has been said in this one

I believe Trobin's comment to apply to this one and my unbiased reading of it has just awarded him a bonus

If this cannot be discussed sensibly, are we not just falling foul of the baited trap set by the 'lawyer' in first instance? [remembering and highlighting an adversarial professional perspective]

Flash has said he will close this thread if that happens, and yet to me that would merely give power to the idea of censorship, which I oppose

Is there a dichotomy here that is at work?

or, are we doomed by our differences to forced censorship?

Aitch

User avatar
Jaybekay
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat 19 May 2007, 04:55
Location: America's hat

Re: A 'Lawyer' responds to the locked thread

#16 Post by Jaybekay »

Aitch wrote:
Except for the unavailable software, which means having two sets of computers; the combat pay and time wasted for having staff deal with shitty, half-baked apps, and the extra malpractice costs inflicted by having unknown software, and perhaps unrecoverable or at least untimely recovery of lost data upon crash, and the hit for extra pay when they threaten to quit, and the additional and extensive retraining costs for new employees and ...

When you start writing paychecks yourself, get back to me.
Isn't most of this argument against Linux applicable to Windows too? Except replace unavailable software and unknown software with virus prone and spyware infected software. My experience is that nearly all small professional offices outsource Windows tech support anyway. Switching to Linux would IMO only necessitate outsourcing to a Linux tech support organization.

Lawyers (and most of the rest of us) live in a world where there is no free ride or where anything free is worth what you paid for it. It is counter-intuitive that some free things (eg. Linux) have value.

The accounting firm I work for is all-Windows for laptops/desktops because of all the 3rd party software. Windows isn't so bad that we have tried to get all the industry standard software to run under Linux. The server is a different story, our Linux server has 100% up-time which is miles ahead of the old Windows server. I would love to know if the author's legal firm has a Linux server.

User avatar
Aitch
Posts: 6518
Joined: Wed 04 Apr 2007, 15:57
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

#17 Post by Aitch »

Jaybekay

Your firm might want to look at this

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=32554

Linux is getting both more support & easier

see also

http://www.hplinuxroadshow.com/article.cfm/id/211788


http://www.samooha.com/

Aitch

User avatar
puppyluvr
Posts: 3470
Joined: Sun 06 Jan 2008, 23:14
Location: Chickasha Oklahoma
Contact:

#18 Post by puppyluvr »

:D Hello,
@Aitch,
are we doomed by our differences to forced censorship?
Certainly not, buddy. :D
Not Censorship, :( Craftsmanship!! :D
When dealing with those who make a living with words, ( Or those who use them as weapons), one must Craft ones phrasing carefully, so as not to supply further ammunition.

I.E..."Do you have a SPECIFIC problem with which we may be of assistance??"
The generalization of complaints, and lack of specifics, have caused this issue to degenerate into a chaotic mess.
In other words, we are to help solve problems, not field generalized complaining..

@ To the Lawyer:
Many of the issues you mentioned are true. They are also true in Windows. You spoke of time investment, and that your time is to valuable to spend learning Linux. (Yet you found time to write an OS review?) This is just as true for M$. You were not born using Windows. Many consider the time invested in Linux well spent. You only have to invest in Linux once (Time). M$ keeps bleeding you forever. (Time, Money)
As I have said, it is a matter of opinion. My problem was your attempt to state your opinion as FACT. Many mainstream commercial businesses are converting their infrastructure to Linux and Open Source. So it is not a fact that it isnt a viable alternative, its your opinion that it is not viable for YOU.
When you come off as M$ is the only way, you sound a lot like M$ itself. Tends to raise a few hackles "round these parts".

User avatar
Billwho?
Posts: 559
Joined: Tue 06 Dec 2005, 09:28
Location: still "In The Dog House" East Coast Oz
Trialing 4.20

#19 Post by Billwho? »

puppyluvr wrote:When you come off as M$ is the only way, you sound a lot like M$ itself. Tends to raise a few hackles "round these parts".
Bingo hence the circling wagons. Especially when the correction of a blatantly unresearched comment is attacked with another blatantly unresearched comment. And this from some-one who makes their living based on research of your failings.
"...explicit warnings about getting responses to email..." Linux people crucify Microsoft for sloppy tech support, and here is a developer, presumably interested in making some money with the effort, actually posting warnings that no help is coming at all.

Is it not made clear on the same page that Barry created Puppy as a hobby and that he was not trying to make any money from said Puppy???? If not then both my memory and my glasses are in drastic need of repair.
Linux = Learning through doing :shock: :? :D
The learning curve may be steep but there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
You just have to pass the occasional oncoming train to get there.

Trobin
Posts: 968
Joined: Fri 19 Aug 2005, 03:16
Location: BC Canada

#20 Post by Trobin »

I don't recall seeing a page where Barry specifically asked for money, but if you go to www.puppylinux.com and click on about Puppy then you get to a page where a donate link is. One could be forgiven for the presumption that compensation is desired if not asked for.

http://www.puppylinux.com/about.htm

Post Reply