Debian 4.0R6

[Sage]

BK seems to think there's value in accessing basic Debian, so in for a penny, I decided to fiddle with the above offering.
First observation - neophytes and mere users need to be retired, unemployed and/or, if in a relationship, have an exceptionally compliant partner. Low energy light bulbs and a contract with the local pizzeria for regular deliveries, night and day, will help.
Some modest experience is rather useful in obtaining an installation. Recommend using the textual installer, despite its dino status.
Help is in there, for sure, but good luck finding, understanding and applying it. Best appraise yourself of the package names you might desire from another distro and use <apt-get install mypackage> from a root command prompt rather than grapple with Synaptic. For perversity, Debian, like many of its many derivatives and other majors, absolutely refuses to permit running as root, so enter <su -> followed by P/W. Just in case you're tempted to refuse to set a user during installation, forget it - it'll demand a user even if there isn't one. Perversity pervades every aspect of this distro.
With luck and persistence, you end up with a default Gnome desktop - arrrhh, I hate Gnome.
But struggle a bit more and you can get KDE and even Xfce d/l-ed. Couple of days later, I managed to get Xfce functional, although sometimes it randomly reverts to Gnome - log out and in again.
Then there's Opera. [In case you've missed the discussions elsewhere - Opera10alpha is the knees beecaps - accept no others, this is THE one, abandon all others.] Two days later, not only managed to d/l, install, but it also starts up. Use the static version. There's a whole bunch of other stuff, not to mention dependencies, that can be added - even streamtuner works.
A week later - it's OK. Worth the effort - for raw recruits, no. For IT graduates, probably a sine qua non. For clods like thee and me, appreciate your comments.
One more thing. Don't even think about using the Debian bug and feedback system - the words pedantic and dictatorial were coined for that stable (stable as in horses, not distros). These guys may be competent in their chosen endeavours, but, speaking as a ex-academic myself, are prime culprits for the accusation of 'academics talking amongst themselves' and holding back the penetration of Linux by a decade.
Be grateful for enlightened developers that, errrr, develop the Debian system into something less intractable.

[tronkel]

Yes, it's all true. Sage's pre-requisites would be a good idea when attempting a Debian install.

It can be a daunting task for a newbie to install Debian for the first time, but after a few attempts with other distros it won't seem all that bad - just long. It is half a day's work if you include the time it takes to download the packages over the network. My download took about 2 hours. You also then need to tweak the system to suit yourself. You could try using CD install, which is how I installed KDE Lenny Testing. You only need CD1. It still needs to download stuff from the net, but that takes about an hour on average. You then end up with a nice well-specified KDE 3.5.9 setup.

Is Debian worth it?

It is on certain systems but not all. It is very stable and boots and runs like the clappers on my AMD 2.4GHz 4G RAM pc.

On the Asus eeepc it's maybe not such a good choice. Fonts and window title bars look wrong out of the box. WLAN and 3G broadband take a lot of setting up as well - and this is even using an eeepc specific kernel.

In a nutshell, Debian is probably the best choice at the end of the day, way better than Ubuntu - but be prepared to get your hands dirty. No such thing as a free lunch (Pizza).

[Sage]

Thanks for that endorsement, tronkel! Yes, I should've mentioned that I used the "netinstall" version so that only the basic liveCD had to be downloaded.
As you say, tuning is more of a career choice than casual operation, but it can be like that with other distros, too. On balance, I think I prefer Slack which also has a vast repository.

[sunburnt]

Debian is rooted in the past somewhat, but it's a clean distro compared to Ubuntu.
If a "Puppy like" version were made of it (Woof), it could be a real world stopper.
Mostly because it'd overcome & bypass much of what is "stodgy" about Debian.
That's mainly the installers & other "odd ball" utilities that make Debian difficult.
Puppy is largely a "preinstalled distro" as it is, so it's very easy to get working.

[nitehawk]

Hmmm,....
I had a rather similiar experience with Debian 4.0R6, myself. I guess what surprized me the most,..is even though it was an "upgrade",....that after all that work and tweaking,....it still had the older apps.
All that struggle and work for older IceWeasel and Wine,........

Anyhow,...my adventure with Debian was a little disappointing IMO.
........Guess I'm just spoiled to Puppy.

[Sage]

Love 'em or hate 'em mainstream penguins have allowed themselves to be seduced by .rpm or .deb, which is fantastic if you have an IT degree; most users have not. This problem has barely shifted in a decade and a half. Then there is Slackware. Against incredible personal as well as technical and financial odds, Patrick V has not only maintained but continued to develop his remarkable system. He deserves a lot more attention and support, as do many of the derivatives. Although it receives plenty of criticism, Vector has its strengths and could well do with considerable additional input.
One of the biggest barriers to wider penetration has been the geographical location of the main protagonists. No this is not another US bashing blast - even a Republican Senate recognised that an operating system was too important to be in the hands of a monopoly. Problem is that their pronouncement elicited no further action. There can be no doubt that the well intentioned (mostyl!) Linux developers also enjoy eating and this can be a big problem in a capitalist society when your hymn sheet has different tunes. No good pretending that all aspects of our lives are not interlinked. Perhaps our Canadian, Aussie and German friends can help break free of the straight-jacket? The Brits had their chance and blew it.
All that makes BK and MU 's efforts the more important. Perhaps that will delay any thoughts of retirement by the former for at least a couple more decades. But worldwide coordination, teamwork and consideration of the 'succession' might be addressed sooner rather than later? What aspirations do wow, n4l, gray and co. harbour?

[gerry]

Debian's OK!!!

It's big, and SOLID. Synaptic is a dream to use, and at the click of a mouse you can download and install one of 19000 applications AND any dependencies.

Needing to use su to do the things that we can do at will in Puppy is a pain.

But I can have any number of window managers installed, and choose any one of them at bootup or later. So if my mouse-finger RSI starts to bother me, I can change to Ratpoison.

EDIT: Something I forgot. The Puppy community really is a community, taking part in the development of Puppy, which takes place very publicly. This is unique so far as I can find out.

But I 99% use Puppy- it's faster, the community are more easy-going- the Debianites do expect you to read the manual before you post a problem.

And why does the Puppy 4 official repository only have the rc version of GIMP 2.4? Debian users get a much later one.

Overall, Puppy's best- but don't knock Debian. Now, Ubuntu.....

Gerry

[rarsa]

neophytes and mere users need to be retired, unemployed and/or, if in a relationship, have an exceptionally compliant partner.

Absolutely valid observation which does not only apply to Debian, but any of the distros that are used as a base to create a custom system (Debian or Slackware, Gentoo, etc).

For users that require convenience, there are purpose specific distros that will make decisions for the user.

For perversity, Debian, like many of its many derivatives and other majors, absolutely refuses to permit running as root, so enter <su -> followed by P/W.

Here is a matter of preference. I am a good typist so the extra three characters (su )don't get in my way.

Be grateful for enlightened developers that, errrr, develop the Debian system into something less intractable.

And some people may say "bloated" as to make it less intractable they make some assumptions for the user.

it still had the older apps.

That's one of the benefits if you want a stable system. Although as a hobbyist I try the most recent versions, professionally I go at most current - 1. I'm talking about versions, not patches.

I prefer the two years old version with 15 service packs than the one that came last week. Professionally true and tried rules.

To each its own.

Vive la différence!

[Todd]

I know you are all talking about Debian. However, I wonder, are there any versions of Linux that have figured out how to combined usability with stability? In posing this question, I would like the reader to consider all of the distributions, not just the free ones. Has Xandros, Red Hat, or Novell figured it out? Obviously, from the verbage offered, Cononical hasn't figured it out.

Todd

[rarsa]

I wonder, are there any versions of Linux that have figured out how to combined usability with stability?

Two uneven terms. Stability is an absolute, Usability is relative. It's like asking for a car that's fast and in a nice colour: You can define "fast" but you cannot define "nice colour".

In the case of Debian or Slackware the goal is stability. Usability comes from personal preference.

The price for stability is "choice". If you want stable drivers, then you won't have ALL the drivers. You'll have to match your hardware to the stable drivers.

If you want to match the drivers to the available hardware then you run the risk of using non stable drivers just so you can use your hardware.

You don't have the option of using the latest software as it would break stability

Of course this is not black and white, most distros fall somewhere in between.

Your question, though, is completely relevant if you apply it to a particular purpose:

Servers: Yes, Redhat and SuSE strive to do that.
Desktop: Yes, There are efforts but they face the hardware conundrum.

[darrelljon]

Debian 5 is out a week on Saturday (2009/02/14) and it finally follows (for the first time) the Puppy convention of combining a live and installable image. Its much faster than any of its derivatives. It even uses KDE 3.5.10 which I prefer over KDE 4. Basically I can't wait!

[nitehawk]

Actually,....I can't wait for Debian 5, myself. It (being the most recent stable release) will come with fairly recent apps,......PLUS being tested and stable! That will be the best of both worlds for now. I have one of my computers (a PIII Dell) just waiting for it right now! Think I'll use something like fluxbox or xfce on it. On second thought,...maybe I'll replace Mepis on my P4 with it,.....who knows?

[magerlab]

i just wanted to try out sidux (based on unstable sid branch)...

[gerry]

magerlab said:
"i just wanted to try out sidux (based on unstable sid branch)..."

Don't. It's for real geeks. If you live in the USA you're lucky- the rest of us have to open a terminal and edit xorg.conf to change to our own keyboard. And although it includes CUPS, it does not include any drivers, not even the Gutenprint ones that Puppy has. And the manual keeps stressing that it is fragile, easily broken, take great care when installing new software or updates.

Installs quickly, though.

Gerry

[Sage]

If you live in the USA you're lucky

Oxymoron?

Endlessly I've called for the complete destruction of capitalism. Only then will M$ be blasted into oblivion, RIAA, MPCA and their cronies be eliminated and all available codecs, drivers, browsers & co be placed into the public domain.

As a bonus, the world will be free of greedy city bankers (there's a special Cockney connotation to that one!), accountants, estate agents and dentists, hopefully with healthcare for everyone paid from general taxation. Did I forget something? Oh yes, no more innocent women and children being massacred by high tech weaponry supplied to client states.

Otherwise, yes, D5 should keep me off the streets, although divine intervention is conspiring to do that today with a foot of snow. Swap you guys in Oz for a forest fire?
And Sidux, the latest 64bit version continues to disappoint.

On reflection, my earlier analysis to remove all SW development from N America for the interim seems entirely sound and rational.

[magerlab]

i like puppy very much and just wanted to try out the latest deb based distro
i became a kind of a geek with puppy
so it's not difficult to add ru keymap manually and add anything else
but puppy fits my needs better than any other linux now.

[nitehawk]

@sage.....

On reflection, my earlier analysis to remove all SW development from N America for the interim seems entirely sound and rational.

Oooooooookie Dooooooookie...........(sounds rational enough to me.)

[sunburnt]

Sage is right on in pretty much everything he said.
"W & company" are the root of all the world's recent problems.
When folks screw things up this bad... You take everything away from them.

Back to subject, the folks at Debian have done a damn good job.
Ubuntu was a good variant, but many think that's "no more".
Hense my choice of Debian as a base for a new "Puppy like" distro.