And the slippery slope gets even more slippery.....

[belham2]

Can this even be real, let alone allowed?: People's right to protest, which is a tenet of The U.S. Constitution & its Amendments for the right to assemble (there is no distinction for what the assembly is for, it was specifically written that way) and to voice free speech, can be turned and/or used against you? This is being backed by Trump's lawyers and people in the White House, using the D.O.J. as his attack dog as Trump promised he would do (but no one believed he would). My Lord, this man and his administration needs to be removed from the White House immediately. I am a lifelong Republican saying this! It hurts. But the country and its cohesiveness is more important than what is going on now in terms of stewardship coming from the WH. It all has gone on too far. Trump is doing everything possible to divide the USA, and it is going to cause and lead the U.S. into another Civil War. Furthermore, actions like this misguided court case pursued by the Trump administration is heinous-----the U.S. is not a corrupt Latin America dictatorship, but Trump & his administration acts like it is, and is doing everything possible in leading things down that road with behavior like this. Trumps need to go now, or to be removed at all cost before things deteriorate any further. It all is just surreal:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... riber-data

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/court-orders- ... 05260.html

Court orders web hosting company to turn over visitor data on anti-Trump site
[The Independent]
Mythili Sampathkumar
The Independent24 August 2017

A Washington DC court has ordered a company to turn over records of visitors to an anti-Donald Trump website.

Chief Judge Robert Morin of the Superior Court of DC has said the Department of Justice can follow through on a search warrant for web hosting company DreamHost's disruptj20.org site.

The site was used to organise protests against Mr Trump on Inauguration Day, 20 January 2017, and authorities are looking for more information on the rioting that occurred that weekend.

Mr Morin had also ruled that the government must minimise data collected on innocent visitors to the site and any third parties that are involved with the site.

The search warrant also specifies that the government must disclose both the search and collections methods used as well as the names of the investigators involved in collection and search procedures.

The DOJ is required to present the data in two separate packages: one will data of innocent visitors and third party groups that will never be reviewed and one with data that appears to violate DC criminal code with regards to rioting and and an accompanying explanation has to how that data is evidence of a crime.

The government can begin collecting the data immediately, but reviewing it will have to wait until DreamHost decides whether it wants to repeal Mr Morin's ruling or not.

Prior to the ruling, DreamHost made the search warrant public and estimated that it involved 1.3 million visitors' IP data and other information that could qualify as a violation of the Privacy Protection Act.

Outside the courtroom a lawyer for DreamHost, Raymond Aghaian, said despite the search warrant limiting review to data that appears to violate riot criminal codes, the government being allowed to "see that information and identify who these political dissidents are is problematic".

"When it comes to sensitive First Amendment issues such as this one, it should not be the case where the government gets to rummage through material to determine whether something is valid or not," he added

[musher0]

Hi belham2.

You're right: freedoms of opinion, assembly and association (even virtual
assembly, such as in this forum) have to be upheld at all costs in any
democracy worthy of the name.

I hope the DreamHost company will ask a Court of Appeals (or whatever
it's called in the USA) to overturn this lower Court decision.

In Canada, our Supreme Court has found that talking about violence and
doing a violent deed are not the same. A person may talk or write on line
all (s)he wants about, say, blowing up statue X in city Y.

Talking about it is certainly not nice, but it is not a crime, under Canadian
Law. The person may have been emotional at the moment (s)he wrote or
talked about it, for whatever reason. It's only if and when (s)he finds the
means and really does it, that (s)he'll get into dddeeeeeppp trouble...

This difference between talk and deed stands to logic, too. I don't see why
it would be different in the US. Why summons this Internet company? By
the very definition of the word, you can't riot on line, anyway, can you?

Keep up the good fight, belham2!

I'd conclude with the motto "True democrats of the world, unite!", but
shucks, you're a Republican!

BFN.

[perdido]

authorities are looking for more information on the rioting that occurred that weekend.

There is no protected speech when organizing and inciting a riot..

.

[bigpup]

authorities are looking for more information on the rioting that occurred that weekend.

There is no protected speech when organizing and inciting a riot...

+1

It is called free speech, not the freedom to destroy stuff and hurt people.!!!

causing hundreds of thousands of dollars in damage over nearly two dozen city blocks.
The rioters, armed with hammers, crow bars and wooden sticks, also injured police and others, according to prosecutors.

So far, 19 people have pleaded guilty among the almost 200 people who were charged,

Do not tell me what Canada laws are.
This is not Canada.

If a judge did not think this was justified, he should have refused to grant the order.
This process is all being done by the laws of the US.
Hopefully this is a judge that actually follows the law.
If not, there is a process to overturn his order, the legal way.

Want to get mad about data collection.
Go look at what Google is doing.

What about the data this DreamHost's disruptj20.org site is collecting on the users?
What are they doing with it?

Organizers of the riot used the website to verify the identity of people who would take part by requiring attendees to log in and provide their credentials, according to the government.

Just what was that needed for!!!

[bigpup]

[quote]Privacy advocates raised concerns that the warrant was an attempt by the Trump administration and the Justice Department under Attorney General Jeff Sessions to cast a “digital dragnet

[bigpup]

prosecutors amended their request, saying in part that while the government wants information on subscribers, it’s not interested in data logs containing information about visitors. Prosecutors also say they will set aside any information that doesn’t involve rioters and have it sealed.

After 8 years of President Obama's government lying about just about everything.
I can understand concern over this!

[cthisbear]

" After 8 years of President Obama's government lying about
just about everything. "

Never.....surely thou jests.

But the pre ordained Hillary would have fixed it....right??

Some gems here.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... rs/384976/

Chris.

[belham2]

authorities are looking for more information on the rioting that occurred that weekend.

There is no protected speech when organizing and inciting a riot...

+1

It is called free speech, not the freedom to destroy stuff and hurt people.!!!

causing hundreds of thousands of dollars in damage over nearly two dozen city blocks.
The rioters, armed with hammers, crow bars and wooden sticks, also injured police and others, according to prosecutors.

So far, 19 people have pleaded guilty among the almost 200 people who were charged,

Do not tell me what Canada laws are.
This is not Canada.

If a judge did not think this was justified, he should have refused to grant the order.
This process is all being done by the laws of the US.
Hopefully this is a judge that actually follows the law.
If not, there is a process to overturn his order, the legal way.

Want to get mad about data collection.
Go look at what Google is doing.

What about the data this DreamHost's disruptj20.org site is collecting on the users?
What are they doing with it?

Organizers of the riot used the website to verify the identity of people who would take part by requiring attendees to log in and provide their credentials, according to the government.

Just what was that needed for!!!

By that definition, every instance in the founding of United States would have been banned and brought to bear for justice. From Paul Revere's ride to countless others along the years. How blind you are to the past, and how shameful to try and close it down for your own purposes/ends today.

This type of closed-mindedness is disappointing. To encourage and take things too far and in a bad direction, and to not, or willfully not, be able to see you're encouraging behavior that is deplorable. Worse, it is encouraging an environment for it to exist.

Shame on any person, democrat, republican, independent and/or otherwise, condoning this behavior. Stop making excuses, and look at what is going on. And quit blaming people and/or others in the past for what exists now. Trump is continually proving and has proven himself to be incapable of leading a diverse group of people in the nation-state that is called the United States. This has nothing to do with political affiliation. I am a lifelong Republican, family on both sides with long, decorated (going back over a century) military service. Many in our extended families are currently still serving. Can either of you (bigpup or perdido) say the same? All of our families (and extended families) are Republicans, and we are all sickened by what we are seeing, and what is coming out of the WH.

Our only hope right now is our generals bat this disgrace of a person into a governable corner, give him his toys (twittering phone) to play with, let him appear on tv to assuage his childlike ego, while they straighten the course and get our country, the United States of America, back on track. We can get rid of many of the misguided Democrat policies over the years. But we do not need to do it in the way this man & his current administration are behaving like & approaching things. It is ourtright shameful, and beneath the dignity of what our great country is all about.
Unreal.......

[Flash]

...By that definition, every instance in the founding of United States would have been banned and brought to bear for justice. From Paul Revere's ride to countless others along the years...

I'm pretty sure that most of them were banned, by England's king and its Parliament. Isn't that what the Revolutionary War was about, the arbitrary bans and the punitive taxes and the English soldiers over here enforcing them?

[musher0]

(...)

Our only hope right now is our generals bat this disgrace of a person into a governable corner, give him his toys (twittering phone) to play with, let him appear on tv to assuage his childlike ego, while they straighten the course and get our country, the United States of America, back on track. We can get rid of many of the misguided Democrat policies over the years. But we do not need to do it in the way this man & his current administration are behaving like & approaching things. It is outright shameful, and beneath the dignity of what our great country is all about.
Unreal.......

Oh yes-yes-yes. Excellent.

Viewed from a country where Trump recently put 90,000 forestry workers
out of a job without due process or due notice, this would be excellent news.

The US governed by generals, like they had in Argentina and Chile a while
back. America finally showing its true military-industrial face. Honesty has
an undefinable charm, don't you think?

Couldn't be worse than it is now. There will finally be decorum, someone
in uniform on TV reading the "State of the Union". High-ranking military
officers are trained not to make fools of themselves in public.

Military officers are also trained to respect their allies, not anger them.

Just they make sure the braggart Trump stays in his White-House / park
sucking on his pacifier, and all will be well.

BFN.

[bigpup]

belham2,

Shame on any person, democrat, republican, independent and/or otherwise, condoning this behavior.

You really feel this is OK?

causing hundreds of thousands of dollars in damage over nearly two dozen city blocks.
The rioters, armed with hammers, crow bars and wooden sticks, also injured police and others, according to prosecutors.

That there should be no laws against doing these things?

None of this is free speech!!

If you watch something, other than fake news, you would get a better and truthful idea of what is being done by President Trump.

I am a lifelong Republican, family on both sides with long, decorated (going back over a century) military service. Many in our extended families are currently still serving. Can either of you (bigpup) say the same?

Yes.
Thank you for serving with me!!

Do I want Generals in charge of the government?
Only if we the people elected them.
Did we the people elect them?

Well, I guess Congress did. They confirmed the appointments.

By your reasoning.
President Trump is a genius for putting all those generals in so many cabinet positions.

[bigpup]

Viewed from a country where Trump recently put 90,000 forestry workers out of a job without due process or due notice, this would be excellent news.

I guess it would be OK if these were workers in the US!

That agreement expired last October.
Before Trump was President !

You going to tell me that Canada's wood is not useful in any other part of the world?

What is Canada's government doing to help solve this problem?

[perdido]

I am a lifelong Republican, family on both sides with long, decorated (going back over a century) military service. Many in our extended families are currently still serving. Can either of you (bigpup or perdido) say the same?

I applaud your extended family, God Bless Them!

I am usarmy retired.

If you looked closely at my avatar you would see it is 205th aviation company, The Geronimos!

.

[bigpup]

A bunch of military retries using our freedom of free speech!

What a country!!!

You too Canada

[perdido]

Thank you for serving with me!!
.

Hey Brother!

God Bless!

.

[musher0]

Viewed from a country where Trump recently put 90,000 forestry workers out of a job without due process or due notice, this would be excellent news.

I guess it would be OK if these were workers in the US!

That agreement expired last October.
Before Trump was President !

You going to tell me that Canada's wood is not useful in any other part of the world?

What is Canada's government doing to help solve this problem?

Hi bigpup.

On the subject of expiration:
It expired last October, but these types of international agreements are
usually maintained statu quo until another one is negotiated. Your President
cut that short for two reasons, IMO:

-- to get CDN $ (billions of them) in the coffers of your lumber companies.
That's where a good chunk of your levies end up. That's pretty easy money
for them if you ask me.

-- to give something to chew on to prejudiced people like yourself who think
Canadians are dumping wood on the American market. (Which we are not.)

As international courts have proven four times already, Canadians are not
dumping wood on the USA and are not subsidizing the forestry trade unduly.

But Americans are too proud to submit to International Law, or too
prejudiced (or too narrow-minded -- your choice) to accept that another
country can have a better tenure system than theirs for their public forests.

Instead of over-taxing our forest products, why don't you review your own
forestry system to make it more competitive.

But no, competitiveness is fair only when it favors Americans, right? Only
Americans can design the best systems, right? If it's American, it's the
best, right? How childish and hypocritical a people you are.

On the subject of usefulness elsewhere:
Canadian wood is useful anywhere!

What the CDN gov't is doing:
I don't have a fresh news source at hand, but offers have been made by
China and some countries of the EU in the wake of Pr. Trump's decision.
I believe our Int'l Trade officials are currently negotiating deals.

On the subject of forced lay-offs:
No, it wouldn't be fair either if our PM would be in a situation to put
90,000 American workers out of a job overnight. But Canadians are known
to play by the rules. The USA with a Republican gov't does NOT play by the
rules.

The moral of this is:
Canadians: get used to it. It's fair-play only if it favors the Americans. They
don't care about "aliens", as they call us. Americans are thought in primary
school that non-Americans have retractable green antennas and tails, which
makes them non-humans. And it's ok to be unfair to non-humans.

Best regards nonetheless.

[bigpup]

Americans are thought in primary
school that non-Americans have retractable green antennas and tails, which
makes them non-humans. And it's ok to be unfair to non-humans.

How can any discussion be considered useful, with crazy statements like this.

Too bad this discussion has moved away from logic and common sense!

Too bad name calling, is considered by some, the answer to everything!
That must be the reason, because you are......................

[musher0]

Hey,

This has nothing to do with the personal qualities individual Americans
may or may not have.

But collectively, you Americans are the ones calling non-Americans
"aliens". It's in your daily vocabulary. There has to be a reason you're
calling us that name. I don't know the real reason, so I invented one. Big
deal.

Coming back to the fact that your Pr. Trump has put 90,000 Canadian
forestry workers out of a job, I'll add this:

If I was the PM of Canada, I would throw the NAFTA accord with you down
the toilet bowl and declare a state of commercial war with you guys,
while maintaining NAFTA with the Mexicans.

I would scrap each and every accord we currently have with the US.

I would dust off the Avro Arrow project and modernize the plane just in
case you guys get fancy ideas. While they are being built, I'd buy and put
in service a few Sukoi's and a few Mirage's. I would call on duty all
Canadian Forces reservists and make the Canada/US border the most
militarized in the world. We wouldn't win a war with you, but before we lost
we would have inflicted you a hell of a lot of damage.

Because a non-Canadian President (or emperor or whatever title) putting
90,000 Canadian workers out of a job for no valid reason with the stroke
of a pen is an act of war, IMO.

Speaking of Mexicans, I know enough Spanish to tell you that our current
PM J. Trudeau has no "cojones". He should be sending Trump to hell --
where he probably comes from anyway.

Best regards nonetheless.

[bigpup]

The British made us do it!

British nationality law has its origins in medieval England. There has always been a distinction in English law between the subjects of the monarch and aliens.

The term "aliens" has been used for a long time.

US law is based on English law.
So, seems logical we would use their terms.
English law, was our laws, until you know what happened!

[Moat]

How childish and hypocritical a people you are.

I hope you're not getting too bent out of shape, musher0 - the reality is that most of us Americans are actually on your side, as more of us slowly come to grips with the realization of how terrible and embarrassing a mistake it was to have placed this feeble-minded, white-trash narcissist into office. Hopefully, it's just a matter of time (sooner rather than later!);

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/first- ... nt-n793251

http://www.latimes.com/politics/washing ... story.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ri ... l-horrors/

It appears bigpup and perdido are a few of those remaining "one-in-fours'".

Bob